Lil' Hunter is WORSE than the Throne

[darugo06]

Alright, so this is another one of those posts ranting about Lil Hunter (as of Update 79), and how I feel he's a mess of a boss compared to the others and in most cases far worse than anything the Palace and Throne itself can throw at me in any given run. I've beaten him plenty of times, but died at least trice more simply due to how hard it is to deal with this boss.

While it's normal to have to deal with large herds of enemies surrounding you during a boss level, with Big Bandit and Big Dog this is mostly contained and even managable once you get used to it. With Big Bandit your main worries are scorpion's spitting at you from off screen and being harassed by armies of maggots, however you're given a good amount of time to at least find a nice corner to hide or clear out before he pops out of the wall. Big Dog's fight involves dealing with enemies without the comfort of walls to hid behind and seperate the action, forcing you to learn your way around a mosaic of bullets and hug some of the corners for the moments of breathe as you clear the field before Big Dog is woken up.

Now, with Lil Hunter, everything is a lot more messy. You're often stuck in narrow, crowded areas with enemies that focus more on charging at you with bullets and even themselves. You're only given barely enough time to clear the room you start out in, assuming you're lucky enough to get a room and not spawn in a large area with a crowd of snowbots ready to pounce or a hallway with some robo-dogs already shooting at you. My run lasting past 5-3 ends up relying more on if I have crowd control weapons ready for the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, or Hammerhead to run and hide, than it does if I can manage the situation through my own skill like with Big Bandit or Big Dog. Lil' Hunter wouldn't be there yet and I'd lose half my health in some cases, because of a bad spawn or an attempt to clear the area for soemthing closer to a 30% chance against the bastard than the normal 10%.

My next point is his methods of attack. Simply put, he has too many options, but lemme get into that.

Understandibly, the bosses get more difficult as you progress. Big Bandit has only two options and they depend on you distance, but are relatively easy to see coming and dodge once you know what you're doing. His gun's bullets are just fast enough to teach you to strafe to avoid them, and the visual cue before his melee charge is there to say "Hey, you should probably move right this moment." His larger than player size attests to how he is basically a beginner boss, and that's perfectly fine.

Moving onto Big Dog, assuming you're in the most optimal situation to handle him, you're left to deal with three main attacks. Big Dog will constantly draw closer as you fight it, which is a huge problem alone. The only way to push him back is with your bullets. Now, he has bullets too. They're fairly easy to dodge, just you the strafing you learned from Big Bandit and you're all good. But then he tosses rcokets are you that you're not going to find yourself dodging, and instead you're shooting at them. You're dealing with homing attacks, while you're using the circle strafing you've alreay used before, while you're keeping pressure on the boss itself so it won't crush you against the wall. By itself, this is easy to deal with, and even when a sniperor two is still alive behind Big Dog, you can mostly handle this with corners and strafing alone and not you don't have to rely on Hammerhead or certain weapons for the occasion.

Lil' Hunter fails to become something as managable as Big Bandit or Big Dog with situation handling alone. Right off the bat, he has about five attack patterns that are all quite deadly. First he'll land on you to deal contact and fire damage, often before you even have a chance to clear some space. Immediately after that, you're welcomed to a barrage of two different bullets. Bouncing slow bullets in a wave that would be managable if only distance allowed, and fast lines of regular bullets that can come too fast for you adequately dodge with most characters. You can hope for cover, but Lil' Hunter is most likely already in the only cover you had for this fight and is shooting you up before you can get soem distance. If that wasn't bad enough the I.D.P.D. are actively part of this fight, but don't expect them to attack the insane AWOL officer currently murdering you. You're the only one they care about and if Lil' Hunter isn't invading your cover, they are. This is the only managable part of this fight, as it shows you how the I.D.P.D. spawn in and how easily they can be taken care of as soon as they spawn.

Notice how you don't learn much from being landed on top of and rushed with two different kinds of bullets you can't possibly hope to dodge in the space you've run to as soon as you entered 5-3. This boss is less skill based and more equipment based, which is troubling for a rogue-like as you can definately have the wrong gear. From clearing an area to dealing with hi, you're expected to have weapons that can destroy crowds in the blink of an eye, as well as have the ability to create your own cover and make your own distance, you're basically expected to have Hammerhead or some time of explosive weapon to have a chance of surviving the shower of bullets Lil' Hunter's come to rain on you, and even that won't be much help when he lands on top of you again anyway.

I'm no game developer, but as a gamer I know when I'm being outskilled and when I'm outright being cheated due to circumstances I couldn't control. Whereas you're meant to take on Big Bandit and Big Dog head on, I feel like Lil' Hunter becomes the boss you're meant to lame out and run from. It feels like he's designed to make you hide behind cover and cower in fear from, forcing you to take pot shots when he's not looking while you handle the small army of snow-based robots and the waves of cops laser-guided on you and not their clearly unstable former companion. It feels backwards and messy compared to the other bosses, even the Nuclear Throne itself is about taking it head on and using you skills to dodge and handle it's barrages. Lil' Hunter makes the Throne feel like a walk in the park. Once I'm there, it's more a matter of my skill that determines whether I win or lose than it is whether I got the right mutation or the right guns for the situation, not to say that they don't factor in but they shouldn't become so heavy in determining the outcome of a boss fight. I feel like I'm restricted to getting certain weapons and always having Hammerhead or Boiling Veins or Strong Spirit if I want to go further in my run than 5-3. And even when I've gotten past 5-3, it's not surprising that even with all my decked out gear and mutations, I have never reached further than 5-3 Loop 1. Lil' Hunter is the true final boss of any run.

[Fried]

I agree entirely.

[squerc]

too much stuff to read but I agree aswell

[Solo Death]

Dat wall of text doh..

don't worry, i read it all, and i agree 100%. lil' hunter isn't in a good place right now, and never really has been.

[Anaverageguy41]

He's not too bad if you have a DPS weapon. Gatling Slugger, Auto Crossbow, Minigun, Laser rifle. All of these can take him out fairly easily and are avaliable on 5-1 to 5-3 or on the caves

[Ins0mn3sia]

Originally posted by Anaverageguy41:

He's not too bad if you have a DPS weapon. Gatling Slugger, Auto Crossbow, Minigun, Laser rifle. All of these can take him out fairly easily and are avaliable on 5-1 to 5-3 or on the caves

This is true, though it shouldn't have to depend on your weapon choices, some may want a hard hitting weapon that can deal with the more "tanky" enemies, that is to say a victory does depend on weapon choices generally because you wouldn't take a near to empty auto crossbow into the throne fight over a nearly full gatling slugger for example.

In any event I totally agree I find myself having my run ended either by Lil' Hunter or by the peripheral enemies that are around that I haven't been able to deal with due to the hail of bullets from Lil' Hunter, and I'm not all that good at the game to have not beaten the throne once..I have made it a few times though..but Lil' Hunter just feels like a messy difficulty spike that can't be "remedied" with skills from previous bosses

[fluury]

All I want is that Lil Hunter DOES NOT spawn ontop of the player, rest I am fine with.

[Boss Cipher%]

Lil Hunter,i think,is absolutely fine as he is right now.

You can't always have easy and predictable boss's like big bandit,big dog,even the throne if i say so myself.

Lil hunter is a tough boss,i will give you that,but at he's current state it seems like he is fairly balanced.

Since the last update,the spawns on 5-3 are MUCH,MUCH SAFER and so you do not need to go around,killing enemies to clear space.


"Having the wrong gear" is not a troubling issue,if you know how to beat him and you have the skill available to do so,it does not matter what gear you have.

One day i beat lil hunter with a lightning shotgun,another day i beat him with a super crossbow,another day i beat him with the chicken sword,it does not matter,you just need to learn how to kill him.

Lil hunter is a boss that is not a joke to battle against unlike big bandit and big dog from before which are way easyier.


I see people complaining about LIL hunter all the time just because they think the boss should be easyier but i completely dissagree.

Before,the boss's you faced where much easyier because they appear in the early game.
When you reach lil hunter,he is a really hard boss because you need to learn,become a better player,YOU CANNOT keep fighting easy boss's.

Vlambeer have said before that getting 2 loops will be difficult at its own,they want the game to be difficult later on so having lil hunter how he is right now,not only is it balanced that way but he is also a hard boss so new players that reach him understand that THEY GOTTA UP THEIR GAME IF THEY WANT TO GO FAR.


That is my opinion on LIL hunter,once you reach him,you better up your game or you will get destroyed,no matter what gear you have,you have to get used to fighting lil hunter.

[=G.E.W.P= The DemoPan]

My biggest problem is that if I kill him in 2 seconds with a heavy crossbow, I feel cheap.
If I don't do that however, I die.

[Rami]

If progression is your worry, don't worry, the eventual Throne will be even harder.

Lil' Hunter continues to be a work in progress. Thank you for the super detailed opinion and feelings on this one.

[Lone Wolf]

I have a problem with this little blue mothertrucker myself and see myself too in this post...my runs didnt ended as much as it does now on this guy...he was kinda good before with his bullet barage and flames flying was a bit pain and his lighting reflexes dodging my homing bolts but it was kinda allright i goten used to it but now...with those bouncy shots and idpd on top of it is too much for this guy...i sometimes dont fell like im in a safer spawn when im in open surrounded by robots all round ...i would welcome the throne to be that tough...it is the finnal boss so it should be tough as nails and throw at you all it has testing all your skills you learned so if you failed at defeating him it wont be such a bad felling since you got atleast to him...but now hunter just doesnt even let you get a shot at it since he is the uber baws his fast and deadly and too much things to throw at you at once ... my only complaint about him is just not to spawn idpd and land on top of you all the time and maybe a little bit slower just a tiny tiny little bit

[smoking that buffoon pack]

Originally posted by Rami:

If progression is your worry, don't worry, the eventual Throne will be even harder.

Good. Throne needs to be hard as FRIGGS.

Also not being a complete ammo dump because that's just infuriating.

[iznaroth?]

Lil' hunter is a fantastically designed boss, with all the right attacks, patterns, and difficulty. He's just not in the right area. He arrives way too early, and usually ends good runs simply because it's up to chance whether or not you'll have a weapon that can kill him by then. If there was another level for him, or he was tweaked slightly it would work better. Every time they change him it always seems like it will be good, but somehow makes him worse.

It would be interesting if his spawn triggered only if there are no enemies surrounding you within an x by x tile radius or something, so that you could have the needed time to prepare. Either that or nerf his damn IDPD spawns, it gets troublesome if there's two shielders and him in a small room.

[darugo06]

Originally posted by Anaverageguy41:

He's not too bad if you have a DPS weapon. Gatling Slugger, Auto Crossbow, Minigun, Laser rifle. All of these can take him out fairly easily and are avaliable on 5-1 to 5-3 or on the caves

But that's what I'm saying. Weapons can make or a break a run, yes, but your skills at handling a situation and working with the weapons you have should be what causes that make or break.

For example, I make it a habit or having one spread shot/crowd controlling weapon, and a strong melee or heavy hitting single shot weapon. Something like the Lightning Shotgun and Gatling Slugger, or Sawed-Off and Blood Launcher. With the expection of the Blood Launcher, which I'm going off the top of my head in saying it won't spawn by 5-2, these weapons don't deal well with Lil' Hunter. The mobs of enemies and I.D.P.D. are easier with these weapons, but Lil' Hunter becomes an annoying game or shooting once and hiding when he retaliates quite violently. Like you said, DPS works better (probably, don't use em much), but I don't want to be required to drop one of my weapons suited to my play styled just to deal with one boss.

[darugo06]

Originally posted by Boss:

Lil Hunter,i think,is absolutely fine as he is right now.

You can't always have easy and predictable boss's like big bandit,big dog,even the throne if i say so myself.

Lil hunter is a tough boss,i will give you that,but at he's current state it seems like he is fairly balanced.

Since the last update,the spawns on 5-3 are MUCH,MUCH SAFER and so you do not need to go around,killing enemies to clear space.


"Having the wrong gear" is not a troubling issue,if you know how to beat him and you have the skill available to do so,it does not matter what gear you have.

One day i beat lil hunter with a lightning shotgun,another day i beat him with a super crossbow,another day i beat him with the chicken sword,it does not matter,you just need to learn how to kill him.

Lil hunter is a boss that is not a joke to battle against unlike big bandit and big dog from before which are way easyier.


I see people complaining about LIL hunter all the time just because they think the boss should be easyier but i completely dissagree.

Before,the boss's you faced where much easyier because they appear in the early game.
When you reach lil hunter,he is a really hard boss because you need to learn,become a better player,YOU CANNOT keep fighting easy boss's.

Vlambeer have said before that getting 2 loops will be difficult at its own,they want the game to be difficult later on so having lil hunter how he is right now,not only is it balanced that way but he is also a hard boss so new players that reach him understand that THEY GOTTA UP THEIR GAME IF THEY WANT TO GO FAR.


That is my opinion on LIL hunter,once you reach him,you better up your game or you will get destroyed,no matter what gear you have,you have to get used to fighting lil hunter.

I never wanted Lil' Hunter to become easier. I just believe his pattern of attack is too wild and "bullet hell"-like for the area he's in.

If the arena was something like Big Dog's, or even just bigger rooms compared to the last few areas of the Frozen City, maybe Lil' Hunter would be more barable with most competent builds and play styles. But as it stands, with the multiple bullet-types and rate of fire he has coupled with his ability to be right on top of you when you flee for cover, while you're already in a fairly small space that suits him more, and you're dealing with enemies, it becomes a desperate struggle that makes the current Throne feel like childsplay. Lil' Hunter just has too much at the moment, I feel.

[darugo06]

Originally posted by Rami:

If progression is your worry, don't worry, the eventual Throne will be even harder.

Lil' Hunter continues to be a work in progress. Thank you for the super detailed opinion and feelings on this one.

Oh... w-well, um. Good. The harder, the better... *ahem* Jokes aside, I did best the Throne by my second attempt (technically third, my second cut short by the Lightning Hammer crashing my game. :/) so a difficulty bump is genuinely appreciated.

Glad to know the devs read these kind of things though. Thank you as well!