Rhino Skin and Strong Spirit are a flaw in this game.

[fluury]

Rhino Skin and Strong Spirit (especially Strong Spirit) are the most powerful and the most needed mutations to have a good run. They are the meta. For obvious reasons - in a game with perma-death, anything which allows you to tank even a single damage point more will be better than anything else in a perma-death game. That's just how it is, and that is a flaw in NT. You should not need a mutation to get far in-game, but sadly currently it is like that.

Don't believe me?

http://puu.sh/k7JH8/63aede6d19.png

These are the scores of a Daily where no one (except Horror maybe?) got Rhino Skin or Strong Spirit. Compared to yesterdays where both Rhino Skin and Strong Spirit were featured these are a joke, almost everyone died very soon in Loops and the majority is Y.V. Why? Because Y.V.'s super fun de-loop stuff isn't fixed yet, allowing players who start with CoB to rack up more and more kills without even getting to loops. Which further backs up my statement.

And I don't want this problem to stay in the game.

The most simple suggestion there is would be to simply remove Rhino Skin and Strong Spirit completely. This would be quite drastic and would leave some heavy after-effects.

Crystal would become even more powerful, same goes with Chicken. Melting would sink badly. Any other character would be at the same odds. These problems could be handled in different ways, as an example I'd leave Crystal with 10 HP yet change that A Ultra to something else.

Chicken I have no idea about.

And Melting could receive Crystal's A Mutation as his B Mutation.

These are of course just ideas, but that HP Mutations being a must to get far is not an idea, but a problem.

I'd like Vlambo's response to this, as this is a sensitive and giant topic which changes everything about the game and I see this as a very big problem.

Another side-effect of this would be that loops get harder, and we want that. Don't we? Of course there are currently other problems like the Crystals exploding in unpredictable patterns, or them exploding at the end of the map and sniping you off-screen, that was fun and fair to watch. But yeah, this thing needs to be adressed.

[fluury]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fluury:

I don't know tbh, RS would still be inferior to SS.

Maybe? Also that Crown stuff wont work since in Loops they stop being there.

Huh? there's no longer a pedestal on loops? You know how you clean cursed weapons, well the same way recharges Strong spirit, thats what im saying.

That would mean you have it once every loop.

[Podo1000]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fluury:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

Huh? there's no longer a pedestal on loops? You know how you clean cursed weapons, well the same way recharges Strong spirit, thats what im saying.

That would mean you have it once every loop.

I think he means just going to Crown Vaults... Which are in loops...

[stereobub]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Podo1000:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fluury:

That would mean you have it once every loop.

I think he means just going to Crown Vaults... Which are in loops...

theres only 3 crowns you can take, after that no more crown vaults.

if understand the confusing mechanic correctly that is.

[Podo1000]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Diplodocus:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Podo1000:

I think he means just going to Crown Vaults... Which are in loops...

theres only 3 crowns you can take, after that no more crown vaults.

if understand the confusing mechanic correctly that is.

Im confoozed...

[splendid ledraps]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Diplodocus:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Podo1000:

I think he means just going to Crown Vaults... Which are in loops...

theres only 3 crowns you can take, after that no more crown vaults.

if understand the confusing mechanic correctly that is.

Oh damn, i never realized. You could still select No Crown though and that wouldnt count to the 3 max? Or is it 3 crown pedestals? or 3 visits in total even if you down go on the pedestal and just disturb the guardians?

[ΘSaniblues]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ΘSan:

What I'm stabbing at is, why is it that these things need to be nerfed in the first place? Strong Spirit deserves a re-work because it's undeniably broken as it is, but why even touch Rhino Skin? Why bring it up? There are statistics showing that it's a good mutation, very commonly used by a lot of players, but there's not really any sense in nerfing or removing it other than that. Outside of daily runs, for what reason would it warrant a nerf? If other mutations are underwhelming in comparison, why not uplift the other ones to the same level? Why not simply try to fix the things that make Strong Spirit such a powerful mutation post-loop, fix the things that can instantly kill you with a fart?

Or is this just an issue of daily runs?

Its much easier to nerf the 5 or so OP mutations rather than buff all the others that are decent and not really a problem.

Like I said, +2 max HP will still be a favorable mutation. But if we can somehow buff all the mid-low mutations, and make +4 max HP not an amazing mutation (thats a lot of HP! compared to starting out with 8!) then id go for that.

We need to find a way to make it so that giving the player 50% more HP is reasonable NOT to choose compared to other mutations. Currently thats only if you get 2nd stomach, strong spirit, and scarier face in the same level up.

>It would be much easier to nerf the 5 or so OP mutations rather than buff all the other ones
But that wouldn't fix anything? You'd still have garbo mutations like Eagle Eyes, and just about everyone under the sun would still pick up Strong Spirit. These mutations would still be more effective than the list of useless ones that nobody picks up, the only change in this scenario would be that Rhino Skin would be added to that list.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fluury:

This isn't an issue with Daily runs but with the general game, I used the daily as data and proof that it's true.

Dailies with SS get deep into Loops

Dailies with Rhino Skin also get deep but not as deep

Dailies without neither of them? Complete failure. Most die before L2.

Of course I could organize a tournament with 5000 players playing the same seed, but what is the difference?

This speaks enough and shows that it needs a nerf, it's a needed meta. And that is NOT fun.

>Dailies with SS/Rhino Skin get deeper runs
It's almost as though these mutations are designed to act as a crutch for players that choose them.
>Dailies without either of them? Complete failure.
In your opinion, it is a failure. Players that simply get to Loop 1 still beat the final boss of the game, which is satisfying enough to a lot of people
>Most die before L2
Loop 2 isn't the end of the game, and Loop 1 isn't "dying early." You're speaking as though the majority of the players of this game even make it to the first loop, when they don't. This loops back to my brief discussion about balancing the game around experienced players. It is nothing short of a mistake to do so.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fluury:

Also, if you'd have to move mutations to the same level you'd have to literally make everything OP and cheesy.

No, you wouldn't. You're under the impression that there's something magical or daunting to simply updating how a mutation functions, but it typically takes fewer than five lines of code to make them work, and a little bit of critical thinking to get them functioning decently on launch. You don't have to make mutations like Eagle Eyes or Boiling Veins completely busted and over-the-top to make them effective, and actually worth the pickup. You just have to actually use your head and consider how the changes you make would actually effect the game, which you haven't been doing throughout this entire thread.

[fluury]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Diplodocus:

theres only 3 crowns you can take, after that no more crown vaults.

if understand the confusing mechanic correctly that is.

Oh damn, i never realized. You could still select No Crown though and that wouldnt count to the 3 max? Or is it 3 crown pedestals? or 3 visits in total even if you down go on the pedestal and just disturb the guardians?

VISIT 3 IN TOTAL.

Doesnt matter if you take a crown or not.

[stereobub]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Diplodocus:

theres only 3 crowns you can take, after that no more crown vaults.

if understand the confusing mechanic correctly that is.

Oh damn, i never realized. You could still select No Crown though and that wouldnt count to the 3 max? Or is it 3 crown pedestals? or 3 visits in total even if you down go on the pedestal and just disturb the guardians?

Honestly since the whole mechanic is implemented in a weird unfinished, complex and unexplained way i dont really undertand either.

But from what I know, you are allowed to have 3 different crowns in your run, might include No Crown as well. You know, a bare head is a fair head.

[splendid ledraps]

Hey like I said San Id like if all of them were buffed to, so much buffed that +4 max HP or survive practically 5 deaths in a run arent high up on the mutations list, and equal to others.

[ΘSaniblues]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

Hey like I said San Id like if all of them were buffed to, so much buffed that +4 max HP or survive practically 5 deaths in a run arent high up on the mutations list, and equal to others.

Well, what would you propose? There are no wrong answers here, don't be afraid to suggest something.

[fluury]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ΘSan:

But that wouldn't fix anything? You'd still have garbo mutations like Eagle Eyes, and just about everyone under the sun would still pick up Strong Spirit. These mutations would still be more effective than the list of useless ones that nobody picks up, the only change in this scenario would be that Rhino Skin would be added to that list.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fluury:

This isn't an issue with Daily runs but with the general game, I used the daily as data and proof that it's true.

Dailies with SS get deep into Loops

Dailies with Rhino Skin also get deep but not as deep

Dailies without neither of them? Complete failure. Most die before L2.

Of course I could organize a tournament with 5000 players playing the same seed, but what is the difference?

This speaks enough and shows that it needs a nerf, it's a needed meta. And that is NOT fun.

>Dailies with SS/Rhino Skin get deeper runs
It's almost as though these mutations are designed to act as a crutch for players that choose them.
>Dailies without either of them? Complete failure.
In your opinion, it is a failure. Players that simply get to Loop 1 still beat the final boss of the game, which is satisfying enough to a lot of people
>Most die before L2
Loop 2 isn't the end of the game, and Loop 1 isn't "dying early." You're speaking as though the majority of the players of this game even make it to the first loop, when they don't. This loops back to my brief discussion about balancing the game around experienced players. It is nothing short of a mistake to do so.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fluury:

Also, if you'd have to move mutations to the same level you'd have to literally make everything OP and cheesy.

No, you wouldn't. You're under the impression that there's something magical or daunting to simply updating how a mutation functions, but it typically takes fewer than five lines of code to make them work, and a little bit of critical thinking to get them functioning decently on launch. You don't have to make mutations like Eagle Eyes or Boiling Veins completely busted and over-the-top to make them effective, and actually worth the pickup. You just have to actually use your head and consider how the changes you make would actually effect the game, which you haven't been doing throughout this entire thread.

Buffing stuff like Eagle Eyes would also be great, but for now what we are trying to accomplish is to make the difference both of those mutations make length-wise smaller.

If RS and SS were made to be a crutch and the meta then I'm sorry but that is a terrible idea for a game which has leaderboards. You should never leave someone in a "multiplayer" game which is designed to be OP.

Then allow me to rephrase it, "worse runs for people which normally reach a bit deeper with them".

^ this also goes with your other statement. People which normally reach a bit further don't because they dont get SS/RS which - as I already said 3 times - are required to have a "in experienced players standards" good and "normal" run.

If you believe SS and RS don't save bad player then you are also wrong. Seeing new players playing the game suddenly getting to 6-1 just because they had SS and Second Stomach as both of their first mutation says enough. I already mentioned that, too.

I've thought about these changes enough, and I know myself that it will effect the game pretty heavily which is why completely removing them would maybe be a bit too drastic.

If you think that I do not want other mutations buffed then I must inform you that that's wrong, buffing "situational and not really that popular" mutations like Sharp teeth and Euphoria or simply buffing the straight up bad mutations (Eagle Eyes) would be great and would actually give me a hard time thinking about some choices, but no matter what tanking more damage will always stay Nr.1# in perma-death games.

[ΘSaniblues]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

Hey like I said San Id like if all of them were buffed to, so much buffed that +4 max HP or survive practically 5 deaths in a run arent high up on the mutations list, and equal to others.

Well, what would you propose? There are no wrong answers here, don't be afraid to suggest something.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fluury:

You should never leave someone in a "multiplayer" game which is designed to be OP.

This isn't a "Multiplayer" game, though. It's single player, and there's a leaderboard for competitive players. I'm going to be frank and say that I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post.

[Solo Death]

For Eagle Eyes, a buff would be easy tbh. Make it not affect shotguns or weapons with the word "super" in the name. The only reason I don't take it is because it ruins those weapons.

[splendid ledraps]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Solo Death:

For Eagle Eyes, a buff would be easy tbh. Make it not affect shotguns or weapons with the word "super" in the name. The only reason I don't take it is because it ruins those weapons.

still not taking it, most weapons have good accuracy and I wont pick a mutation just to make an ok weapon into a good one when good ones already exist.

Diposting pertama kali oleh ΘSan:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

Hey like I said San Id like if all of them were buffed to, so much buffed that +4 max HP or survive practically 5 deaths in a run arent high up on the mutations list, and equal to others.

Well, what would you propose? There are no wrong answers here, don't be afraid to suggest something.

I could make a big post or something about buffing all the mutations that I think are low-mid tier.

[fluury]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ΘSan:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Fluury:

You should never leave someone in a "multiplayer" game which is designed to be OP.

This isn't a "Multiplayer" game, though. It's single player, and there's a leaderboard for competitive players. I'm going to be frank and say that I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post.

Anything which features an online thing where you play against others I consider a "multiplayer" game.

If you do not bother to read the rest then don't answer on the rest of this, theres stuff I said three times already.