Rhino Skin and Strong Spirit are a flaw in this game.

[fluury]

Rhino Skin and Strong Spirit (especially Strong Spirit) are the most powerful and the most needed mutations to have a good run. They are the meta. For obvious reasons - in a game with perma-death, anything which allows you to tank even a single damage point more will be better than anything else in a perma-death game. That's just how it is, and that is a flaw in NT. You should not need a mutation to get far in-game, but sadly currently it is like that.

Don't believe me?

http://puu.sh/k7JH8/63aede6d19.png

These are the scores of a Daily where no one (except Horror maybe?) got Rhino Skin or Strong Spirit. Compared to yesterdays where both Rhino Skin and Strong Spirit were featured these are a joke, almost everyone died very soon in Loops and the majority is Y.V. Why? Because Y.V.'s super fun de-loop stuff isn't fixed yet, allowing players who start with CoB to rack up more and more kills without even getting to loops. Which further backs up my statement.

And I don't want this problem to stay in the game.

The most simple suggestion there is would be to simply remove Rhino Skin and Strong Spirit completely. This would be quite drastic and would leave some heavy after-effects.

Crystal would become even more powerful, same goes with Chicken. Melting would sink badly. Any other character would be at the same odds. These problems could be handled in different ways, as an example I'd leave Crystal with 10 HP yet change that A Ultra to something else.

Chicken I have no idea about.

And Melting could receive Crystal's A Mutation as his B Mutation.

These are of course just ideas, but that HP Mutations being a must to get far is not an idea, but a problem.

I'd like Vlambo's response to this, as this is a sensitive and giant topic which changes everything about the game and I see this as a very big problem.

Another side-effect of this would be that loops get harder, and we want that. Don't we? Of course there are currently other problems like the Crystals exploding in unpredictable patterns, or them exploding at the end of the map and sniping you off-screen, that was fun and fair to watch. But yeah, this thing needs to be adressed.

[splendid ledraps]

If you guys agree Chicken's passive is too OP, just looking at how important staying alive is, then I dont get the denial behind Strong Spirit, and rhino skin which is basically another health booster that allows you to take another hit.

[fluury]

Really, my view on a perfect future on this would be to raise the base HP to 10 and the removal of both of those mutations alongside with Crystal, Melting and Chicken changes.

This will probably never happen and I fear that this issue will stay in the game till its done

but seeing as this thread exploded with activity, Vlambo cant ignore the issue

right

[ΘSaniblues]

So why is there no issue with Scarier Face? Would that not be "necessary" for multiple loop runs since every enemy loses 20% of their health? Why are Strong Spirit and Rhino Skin (for a reason other than Facts and Statistics) the only problematic mutations for daily runs? How exactly would you propose you fix that, other than removing them from the game?

[splendid ledraps]

Scarier face is OP though, id say it should be around 15% or even 10%.

Especially when JW takes it over Throne butt as plant, he did that in a stream before. Thats when you know scarier face is just a bit to high, since we know throne butt aint going back up to even 40%.

[fluury]

Początkowo opublikowane przez ΘSan:

So why is there no issue with Scarier Face? Would that not be "necessary" for multiple loop runs since every enemy loses 20% of their health? Why are Strong Spirit and Rhino Skin (for a reason other than Facts and Statistics) the only problematic mutations for daily runs? How exactly would you propose you fix that, other than removing them from the game?

I never said there is no issue with Scarier Face.

It's just that Scarier face does not matter as much as both of those mutations (as, once again, statistics show.) do.

A nerf to Scarier Face would be great, too. Something around 12%.

And alongside that we could reduce the HP of some enemies, too, cough...

[sitzmak]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

Scarier face is OP though, id say it should be around 15% or even 10%.

Especially when JW takes it over Throne butt as plant, he did that in a stream before. Thats when you know scarier face is just a bit to high, since we know throne butt aint going back up to even 40%.

GUYS WE DON'T NEED TO NERF EVERYTHING MODERATELY GOOD, YOU CAN MESS WITH SS AND RHINO SKIN ALL YOU LIKE BUT AIN'T NOBODY MESSES WITH SCARY FACE

[splendid ledraps]

OK scarier face nerf for another thread. (despite it being OP, not just good, it's 20% of EVERYTHING'S health)

Strong spirit + rhino skin save your life to much and are well worth the choice, maybe the best choice you can pick out of all the mutations.

[sitzmak]

but, anyway, I would actually be OK iwth SS and Rhino Skin being nerfed, just not ot a point of uselessness, which is what having Rhino Skin doing +1 would do.

but removing them? nah dahg, that ain't fun, there have been many suggestions to "fix" the two mutations in this thread, and removing the two is most likely not going to happen, given that JW and Rami probably like them.

[splendid ledraps]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Obama #JWPlsIncentiviseHQ:

but, anyway, I would actually be OK iwth SS and Rhino Skin being nerfed, just not ot a point of uselessness, which is what having Rhino Skin doing +1 would do.

but removing them? nah dahg, that ain't fun, there have been many suggestions to "fix" the two mutations in this thread, and removing the two is most likely not going to happen, given that JW and Rami probably like them.

yea, its pretty acknowledged they wont just remove them.

+1 Max HP from rhino skin would still be worthwhile. It just will be less of a "ok I gotta get that mutation, forget the other 3 that showed up" and more of a "well +1 HP that's pretty handy, but maybe I should go with gamma guts so technomancer is easier"

You'd know that you'd still go with +1 max HP if you're offered some crap mutations, like eagle eyes, extra feet (as plant), and last wish.

+2 HP seems better though.

[ΘSaniblues]

What I'm stabbing at is, why is it that these things need to be nerfed in the first place? Strong Spirit deserves a re-work because it's undeniably broken as it is, but why even touch Rhino Skin? Why bring it up? There are statistics showing that it's a good mutation, very commonly used by a lot of players, but there's not really any sense in nerfing or removing it other than that. Outside of daily runs, for what reason would it warrant a nerf? If other mutations are underwhelming in comparison, why not uplift the other ones to the same level? Why not simply try to fix the things that make Strong Spirit such a powerful mutation post-loop, fix the things that can instantly kill you with a fart?

Or is this just an issue of daily runs?

[splendid ledraps]

Początkowo opublikowane przez ΘSan:

What I'm stabbing at is, why is it that these things need to be nerfed in the first place? Strong Spirit deserves a re-work because it's undeniably broken as it is, but why even touch Rhino Skin? Why bring it up? There are statistics showing that it's a good mutation, very commonly used by a lot of players, but there's not really any sense in nerfing or removing it other than that. Outside of daily runs, for what reason would it warrant a nerf? If other mutations are underwhelming in comparison, why not uplift the other ones to the same level? Why not simply try to fix the things that make Strong Spirit such a powerful mutation post-loop, fix the things that can instantly kill you with a fart?

Or is this just an issue of daily runs?

Its much easier to nerf the 5 or so OP mutations rather than buff all the others that are decent and not really a problem.

Like I said, +2 max HP will still be a favorable mutation. But if we can somehow buff all the mid-low mutations, and make +4 max HP not an amazing mutation (thats a lot of HP! compared to starting out with 8!) then id go for that.

We need to find a way to make it so that giving the player 50% more HP is reasonable NOT to choose compared to other mutations. Currently thats only if you get 2nd stomach, strong spirit, and scarier face in the same level up.

[fluury]

Początkowo opublikowane przez ΘSan:

What I'm stabbing at is, why is it that these things need to be nerfed in the first place? Strong Spirit deserves a re-work because it's undeniably broken as it is, but why even touch Rhino Skin? Why bring it up? There are statistics showing that it's a good mutation, very commonly used by a lot of players, but there's not really any sense in nerfing or removing it other than that. Outside of daily runs, for what reason would it warrant a nerf? If other mutations are underwhelming in comparison, why not uplift the other ones to the same level? Why not simply try to fix the things that make Strong Spirit such a powerful mutation post-loop, fix the things that can instantly kill you with a fart?

Or is this just an issue of daily runs?

This isn't an issue with Daily runs but with the general game, I used the daily as data and proof that it's true.

Dailies with SS get deep into Loops

Dailies with Rhino Skin also get deep but not as deep

Dailies without neither of them? Complete failure. Most die before L2.

Of course I could organize a tournament with 5000 players playing the same seed, but what is the difference?

This speaks enough and shows that it needs a nerf, it's a needed meta. And that is NOT fun.

Also, if you'd have to move mutations to the same level you'd have to literally make everything OP and cheesy.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Obama #JWPlsIncentiviseHQ:

but, anyway, I would actually be OK iwth SS and Rhino Skin being nerfed, just not ot a point of uselessness, which is what having Rhino Skin doing +1 would do.

but removing them? nah dahg, that ain't fun, there have been many suggestions to "fix" the two mutations in this thread, and removing the two is most likely not going to happen, given that JW and Rami probably like them.

Ya know what aint fun dahg

not being able to get far because of two cheesy mutations

so either you make everything cheesy so the cheesy mutations stop being cheesy

or you turn both of them down to the normal level which I think is impossible right now

[splendid ledraps]

"turn both of them down to the normal level which I think is impossible right now"

but +2 max HP and Strong spirit only recharging every crown pedestal, +last wish, would work out. Even my savage idea of once a loop a recharge might too.

[fluury]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

"turn both of them down to the normal level which I think is impossible right now"

but +2 max HP and Strong spirit only recharging every crown pedestal, +last wish, would work out. Even my savage idea of once a loop a recharge might too.

I don't know tbh, RS would still be inferior to SS.

Maybe? Also that Crown stuff wont work since in Loops they stop being there.

[splendid ledraps]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Fluury:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

"turn both of them down to the normal level which I think is impossible right now"

but +2 max HP and Strong spirit only recharging every crown pedestal, +last wish, would work out. Even my savage idea of once a loop a recharge might too.

I don't know tbh, RS would still be inferior to SS.

Maybe? Also that Crown stuff wont work since in Loops they stop being there.

Huh? there's no longer a pedestal on loops? You know how you clean cursed weapons, well the same way recharges Strong spirit, thats what im saying.