The difficulty curve and its ramifications

[warpdrive]

This is kind of a tough thread for me to make, apologies if it kind of rambles. (also it's long)

I was inspired to start thinking about this sort of thing once generators were introduced; I think it's a pretty safe assumption that most people aren't the biggest fans of the generators; neither am I. There are a ton of threads about that already and this isn't completely about that (though I'll voice support for Ledraps's button idea, no doubt). This update did help the matter a bit but I think there's more room for improvement.

The last element that's really spiked the difficulty of loops are the vans, and before them elites, the former getting a bit more flak from what I've seen.

I have 600 hours in the game to this point so my opinion may be not be most accurate for new players but it seems like at the point of the throne onward there is an absolutely massive spike in both difficulty and how much things seem to become a chore, that as a new player I'd find the quest to complete L1 without knowing much about it to be incredibly grueling.

To account some of the main sources of difficulty (this is not a suggestion to nerf all of this)
- All of the elites, especially elite shielders because their shots can't be reflected
- Vans, especially that vans can pop in from off screen, in corridors, or when their portals can be invisible because of walls
- Walls of fireballers/guardians/scorpions that make damage nearly unavoidable
- Bad spawn luck
- I would argue Mum and Hyper Crystal depending on the layout
- Both thrones

The vast majority of this comes into existence between 0-1 and 1-1, and of course, this requires the 7-3 throne fight to cause a successful loop to begin with. This seems like it would be, again only by my hunch, that this might overwhelm intermediate players. More or less, 7-3 to L1 1-1 is absolutely many more times more difficult than anything before and it seems like the last 15 minutes or however long it took you to get to L1 1-1 is mostly thrown out if you get there because of the vast amount of instant death situations.

One thing I have heard that I think JW's said is (secondhandedly, I could be wrong on this), that 2 elite inspectors is supposed to end the run. I've dealt with 4 elite shielders and 2 inspectors before, but "sorry, you're dead" isn't very fun imo. Compare to wall cars spawning on top of the player last update; obviously not intentional, but the same effect. That the elites spawn randomly combinded with bad van timing depending on build makes for some very frustrating situations, I've always been an advocate for an elite limit and I'll stand by that.

Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of the changes that are presumably nerfing the endgame have ramifications on the early game too. The energy hammer and super slugger nerfs strike me in particular - haven't seen a ton of use of either, especially the slugger. However, they're both fairly moderate stage weapons, making things all the bit rougher for people with less experience. There are a fairly small pool of weapons that I'd want to be looping with, and it's slowly getting smaller, which makes for less variety, this goes well with my next point...

A lot of the endgame weapons don't strike me as particularly stellar as well - I'm not enthusiastic about taking any of the cannons at this point (plasma being the best if I had to pick, maybe lightning), the later-game (or hell, pretty much all) bullet weapons are very underwhelming, explosives aren't worth the risk of suicide with the glut of enemies in loop, there are a large handful of golden weapons that worsen the pool, and a fair chunk of the ultras (laser pistol, grenade launcher, and debatably crossbow) are underpowered or not sustainable.

I've always been an advocate of more later game fast weapons, buffs to the later game weapons could work here too. Either way, this limits that amount of viable builds and makes the meta seem more static.

Combining all of this, even for more experienced players, this chunk of the game feels frustrating on a variety of levels, and being dropped into it also makes it a jarring jump. I feel like the lower daily scores reflect this pretty well, as well as the large chunk of deaths at the throne that were especially apparent when the generators first came in...if there are a few chokepoints I would want the throne and van issues fixed first.

Again, this is all a matter of opinion but I've seen more people than usual frustrated (myself included) and wanted to give my own spin on it, maybe this will speak to someone out there. I've also heard larger streamers like Tam have been more frustrated as of late as well; as someone who's made a decent chunk of their living on the game I find that a bit alarming. Anyway, thanks for reading; feedback or pictures of salt always appreciated.

EXTRA: I was actually going to make this post before this update dropped but I wanted to reassess after the changes, as I've said throne 1 got a bit better, which is good...but vans coming in from offscreen and portals appearing under walls are incredibly unfun and have the same sort of "sorry you're dead" feeling that I loathe. To anyone that's seen me comment on stream chats and the like this is one of the things I'm really outspoken about disliking but taking hammerhead shouldn't be needed to avoid this sort of thing, not that hammerhead helps when you can't see the portal anyway. Honestly these last few updates have left me not as enthusastic as I've usually been, maybe I should take some time off until the balance fixes go on full force.

[Mayonnaise]

I don't have much to say here, other than i agree. I'm gonna point out something in the title tho.
"RAMIfications" heh.

[Solo Death]

Smitty Werbenjagermanjensen lähetti viestin:

I don't have much to say here, other than i agree. I'm gonna point out something in the title tho.
"RAMIfications" heh.

I was waiting for this, not gonna lie.

[Pink]

List of viable weapons I used in lategame (in no partcular order):
1. Ultra revolver
2. Ultra shotgun
3. Ultra shovel
4. Ultra grenade launcher
5. Ultra crossbow
6. Gatling bazooka
7. Gatling slugger
8. Lightning shotgun
9. Lightning cannon
10. Super splinter gun
11. Dragon
12. Auto crossbow
13. Heavy auto crossbow
14. Hyper slugger
15. Energy sword
16. Energy hammer
17. Energy screwdriver
18. Plasma cannon
19. Plasma minigun
20. Laser minigun
21. Seeker shotgun
22. Hyper launcher
23. Blood hammer
24. Blood cannon
25. Super plasma cannon
26. Auto flame shotgun
27. Double flame shotgun
28. Lightning SMG
29. Super crossbow
30. Jackhammer

---------------

So 30 L2 viable weapons from the top of my head isn't such a bad selection really.

[❍peth]

Solo Death #♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lähetti viestin:

Smitty Werbenjagermanjensen lähetti viestin:

I don't have much to say here, other than i agree. I'm gonna point out something in the title tho.
"RAMIfications" heh.

I was waiting for this, not gonna lie.

I almost did make this post, but it seemed like the discussion was too serious. I'll take half the credit for the humor though, thanks!

[fluury]

horheristo lähetti viestin:

List of viable weapons I used in lategame (in no partcular order):
1. Ultra revolver
2. Ultra shotgun
3. Ultra shovel
4. Ultra grenade launcher
5. Ultra crossbow
6. Gatling bazooka
7. Gatling slugger
8. Lightning shotgun
9. Lightning cannon
10. Super splinter gun
11. Dragon
12. Auto crossbow
13. Heavy auto crossbow
14. Hyper slugger
15. Energy sword
16. Energy hammer
17. Energy screwdriver
18. Plasma cannon
19. Plasma minigun
20. Laser minigun
21. Seeker shotgun
22. Hyper launcher
23. Blood hammer
24. Blood cannon
25. Super plasma cannon
26. Auto flame shotgun
27. Double flame shotgun
28. Lightning SMG
29. Super crossbow
30. Jackhammer

---------------

So 30 L2 viable weapons from the top of my head isn't such a bad selection really.

Which of those weapons require certain mutations to be good?

EDIT : And which of those weapons will an average player view as viable? Not very much.

[Solo Death]

horheristo lähetti viestin:

List of viable weapons I used in lategame (in no partcular order):
19. Plasma minigun

Are we using the same plasma minigun or am I just missing something? Even when used the way it's supposed to be used, it feels very underwhelming to me compared to any other late game energy weapon (except the obvious devastator and ion cannon)

[Pink]

Fluury lähetti viestin:

horheristo lähetti viestin:

List of viable weapons I used in lategame (in no partcular order):
1. Ultra revolver
2. Ultra shotgun
3. Ultra shovel
4. Ultra grenade launcher
5. Ultra crossbow
6. Gatling bazooka
7. Gatling slugger
8. Lightning shotgun
9. Lightning cannon
10. Super splinter gun
11. Dragon
12. Auto crossbow
13. Heavy auto crossbow
14. Hyper slugger
15. Energy sword
16. Energy hammer
17. Energy screwdriver
18. Plasma cannon
19. Plasma minigun
20. Laser minigun
21. Seeker shotgun
22. Hyper launcher
23. Blood hammer
24. Blood cannon
25. Super plasma cannon
26. Auto flame shotgun
27. Double flame shotgun
28. Lightning SMG
29. Super crossbow
30. Jackhammer

---------------

So 30 L2 viable weapons from the top of my head isn't such a bad selection really.

Which of those weapons require certain mutations to be good?

Besides Ultra revolver, Ultra shotgun, Dragon, gatling bazooka, gatling slugger, Blood cannon, auto flame shotgun, hyper slugger - all of them.

Shell and explosives are actually the only categories that require the least amount of mutations to remain viable.

Solo Death #♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lähetti viestin:

horheristo lähetti viestin:

List of viable weapons I used in lategame (in no partcular order):
19. Plasma minigun

Are we using the same plasma minigun or am I just missing something? Even when used the way it's supposed to be used, it feels very underwhelming to me compared to any other late game energy weapon (except the obvious devastator and ion cannon)

You gotta tap shoot the plasma / laser mini, or you're basically wasting ammo.

[fluury]

horheristo lähetti viestin:

Fluury lähetti viestin:

Which of those weapons require certain mutations to be good?

Besides Ultra revolver, Ultra shotgun, Dragon, gatling bazooka, gatling slugger, Blood cannon, auto flame shotgun, hyper slugger - all of them.

Shell and explosives are actually the only categories that require the least amount of mutations to remain viable.

Are you trying to tell me you can use the gatling bazooka without certain mutations and you will be fine?

[Pink]

Fluury lähetti viestin:

horheristo lähetti viestin:

Besides Ultra revolver, Ultra shotgun, Dragon, gatling bazooka, gatling slugger, Blood cannon, auto flame shotgun, hyper slugger - all of them.

Shell and explosives are actually the only categories that require the least amount of mutations to remain viable.

Are you trying to tell me you can use the gatling bazooka without certain mutations and you will be fine?

Was already done, but you know what, I'll take it back for you.
Also, we're not talking about user friendly weapons. All of these weapons can be used legit on L2 or higher. The learning curve is another matter.

[fluury]

horheristo lähetti viestin:

Fluury lähetti viestin:

Are you trying to tell me you can use the gatling bazooka without certain mutations and you will be fine?

Was already done, but you know what, I'll take it back for you.

To each their own, but from a honest view going from what the majority from NT players see as viable weapons for loops there really aren't that many, which is bad.

[Solo Death]

horheristo lähetti viestin:

Solo Death #♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lähetti viestin:

Are we using the same plasma minigun or am I just missing something? Even when used the way it's supposed to be used, it feels very underwhelming to me compared to any other late game energy weapon (except the obvious devastator and ion cannon)

You gotta tap shoot the plasma / laser mini, or you're basically wasting ammo.

Plasma mini still just doesn't feel like it does enough even when you do that, honestly. Laser mini I really love but I'm an avid laser fan as well so there is that.

Might just be my general aversion and bias to non-cannon plasma weapons. They feel lackluster to me unless I'm on the other end of an elite shielders variant.

[Pink]

Solo Death #♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lähetti viestin:

horheristo lähetti viestin:

You gotta tap shoot the plasma / laser mini, or you're basically wasting ammo.

Plasma mini still just doesn't feel like it does enough even when you do that, honestly. Laser mini I really love but I'm an avid laser fan as well so there is that.

Might just be my general aversion and bias to non-cannon plasma weapons. They feel lackluster to me unless I'm on the other end of an elite shielders variant.

A plasma spread can clear screens nicely.
It actually suffers from the same problem Ion cannon does when spamming it on single targets.

[Solo Death]

horheristo lähetti viestin:

Solo Death #♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lähetti viestin:

Plasma mini still just doesn't feel like it does enough even when you do that, honestly. Laser mini I really love but I'm an avid laser fan as well so there is that.

Might just be my general aversion and bias to non-cannon plasma weapons. They feel lackluster to me unless I'm on the other end of an elite shielders variant.

A plasma spread can clear screens nicely.
It actually suffers from the same problem Ion cannon does when spamming it on single targets.

Yeah I knew about that, it's a big reason why ion cannon is so bad. I'll have to experiement with the minigun sometime when I feel like doing it.

[Anonymous_Koala]

Gieron lähetti viestin:

KROGNOL lähetti viestin:

This is probably the biggest problem I have with the game right now. Going into a loop and just getting smashed to death by multiple elites because of bad rng is not fun. Not fun at all.

Agreed

If you ask me i'd like loop 1 to be doable all the way to the Palace, not so crazy. Just so you can get a taste of all that content that you will miss out if you're not AMAZING at the game/didn't play it for hundreds of hours. Loop 2 should be as difficult as loop 1 is now and should get crazy but not insane like it is now. Loop 3 should be the impossible one for hardcore players.

The leaderboards should show L2 and L3 as the place you died in. Now most of people die on Loop 1 and that kinda sux. You dont even see how the bosses change, majority of the community never even fought the Hyper Crystal or the Technomancer.

We on the forums have played the game for soooo long. The main selling point of the game should be the loop. New people that buy it could get burned out on the game before they even get to a point of being so good at it to survive on a loop.

Basically tone down everything so loop 3 is the impossible one, not loop 2.

horheristo lähetti viestin:

Looping right now is like playing mario and after beating the first castle, you are thrown into the final stages. That's how bad it spikes.

And this is feedback from a guy that plays games all the time, aims to be the best and does a daily every day often being in top 3. If a guy like that says it's to hard then something is a miss.

This ^^

[Hedonism]

horheristo lähetti viestin:

List of viable weapons I used in lategame (in no partcular order):
1. Ultra revolver
2. Ultra shotgun
3. Ultra shovel
4. Ultra grenade launcher
5. Ultra crossbow
6. Gatling bazooka
7. Gatling slugger
8. Lightning shotgun
9. Lightning cannon
10. Super splinter gun
11. Dragon
12. Auto crossbow
13. Heavy auto crossbow
14. Hyper slugger
15. Energy sword
16. Energy hammer
17. Energy screwdriver
18. Plasma cannon
19. Plasma minigun
20. Laser minigun
21. Seeker shotgun
22. Hyper launcher
23. Blood hammer
24. Blood cannon
25. Super plasma cannon
26. Auto flame shotgun
27. Double flame shotgun
28. Lightning SMG
29. Super crossbow
30. Jackhammer

---------------

So 30 L2 viable weapons from the top of my head isn't such a bad selection really.

For once I got to agree with hor there are a lot of usable weapons I would remove gatling bazooka for the super bazooka and add laser canon but it's a matter of preference

Problem is the most efficient one are pretty much the same E-sword/hammer/scredriver/guitar/,Ushovel, jackhammer are all melee and feels pretty much the same way except the screwdriver maybe

same goes the bolts and shotties

90% of the explosives one sucks and same goes for the bullets

I don't think the weapons are the root of the problem here