Rebel the Worst character ?

[Gieron]

As you can see Rebel clearly wins the prize in the recent Wiki Month Poll as the worst character. I dont mean to offend anyone who likes her but thats how people vote, plz keep that in mind.

I just came up with an idea of possible buff that wouldn't change much but still.

So code an interaction for Rebel's allies with the cursor. They would spawn where your cursor is or/and follow it and/or focus their fire where its pointing. That would improve the Rebel gameplay allot in my opinion without changing how much they cost and stuff like that. Also the length of allies lifespan could be a little longer.

Whats your opinion on that ? Do you have any ideas how to improve Rebel ?

[Solid]

Stop the Insanity の投稿を引用：

What about the fact that Melting dies in 1 hit from nearly everything without rhino skin?

I don't really think Rebel having certain mutations take her from arguably not so good to awesome is a bad thing at all. It kind of hightlights the fact that she has a more unique playstyle. There's a fair amount that synergise with her ability and it makes those mutations all the more satisfying when they show up.

I'm more underwhelmed by Rebels passive, than her active ability.

Melting makes sense because his abilities work with his lack of health. He can effectively clear out rooms at a distance with his active and his passive helps compensate for not getting rads all the time because you are at range. Rebel by comparison is only "good" at closer ranges because of the nature of her abilities, but is still limited by health.

The main thing I am going to counter is the the part about mutations. A run should fail because of player choices and skill; not the RNG. Having a character that is dependent on certain mutations is disrespectful of the player's time when even being able to pick those mutations is based on RNG; an RNG that is not revealed until a way into the game. I play the game to see how far I can get each run, but I am not willing to play when the RNG determines if I will be progressing or not. I am not going to pull my punches here; Rebel's current build makes it so she is not enjoyable for most players once they experience her problem and feel limited by the RNG. I think with some tweaks Rebel could be fixed, but bringing up mutations as a defense for Rebel just undermines your own argument. When the best of the best in the community do a challenge using Rebel and have trouble getting a single loop then there is an issue (note that in the Crazy Hedgehog Challenge even using "bad weapons" has allowed people to get multiple loops).

[Zenyatta]

apopei_viorel_cosmin の投稿を引用：

I've only been here for a little while, but i would STRONGLY advise towards a complete rework of her active. It's not a very good ability , and it's going to be painful for Vlambeer to balance and tweak it to the point where people consider it worthwhile.
The problem is, this game is completely skill based, so 2 HP can go a LONG way for some people. I've heard of people getting to the throne with 2 hp Melting. When you ask players to sacrifice 2 hp they expect to get a lot out of it and that just ain't happening.
Programming AI is hard. Programming AI in a game about twitch reflexes is REALLY hard.
The ability itself isn't even as fun to use as let's say Chicken's Slow mo or Crystal's shield. The player himself has no input on what the guys actually do, you just click the button and hope for the best.

If you look at the cost/benefit of the ability it just doesn't add up.

Here are a couple of ideas that could make her more effective:

-Rework 1 : Summons 2 allies that always stand next to Rebel and fire along with you in the direction of where you're shooting. You're sacrificing HP for more firepower and 2 human shields around you. Throne butt makes them orbit you (increasing the chance they take shots for you) and increases their hp.

-Rework 2: Summons a guy that slowly walks towards your mouse cursor and draws enemy fire. Throne butt makes him explode when he reaches his destination.

-Rework 3. Summons a non-moving dude at your mouse pointer that shoots at where your mouse is pointing, basically a turret. Throne butt lets you activate the ability again to switch places with your ally.

-Rework 3. Sacrifice HP to cloak and run faster leaving a non-moving NPC dude in your place that draws fire. You de-cloak after 2 seconds. Throne Butt makes the guy shoot, and explode once his time runs out.

EDIT: Here's another interesting one:

Sacrifice 2 HP to turn into some massive , big-bandit like form, and charge in one direction, going through walls and enemies. Think of all the uses of THAT . And since it costs HP you won't have players exploiting levels all the time.

all of those are the best ideas i have heard concerning rebel so far awesome!

[Sinlord]

I don't believe that Rebel needs any special mutation to work. Having special mutations enables you to play her differently than you would if you didn't have those mutations. Admittedly I haven't tried playing Rebel in any other way than the heal galore build, but I have played her when not getting the right mutations. You can't play Rebel the same way if you dont have those mutations, that is correct, but playing Rebel with those mutations isn't necessarily the way Rebel should be played. It's simply a build that has the best synergy with her, so far. I believe Rebel haven't been out long enough.

[Solid]

K. H. の投稿を引用：

I don't believe that Rebel needs any special mutation to work. Having special mutations enables you to play her differently than you would if you didn't have those mutations. Admittedly I haven't tried playing Rebel in any other way than the heal galore build, but I have played her when not getting the right mutations. You can't play Rebel the same way if you dont have those mutations, that is correct, but playing Rebel with those mutations isn't necessarily the way Rebel should be played. It's simply a build that has the best synergy with her, so far. I believe Rebel haven't been out long enough.

And yet when people don't take the health related mutations while playing as Rebel and actually using her ability they have serious issues getting loops. Robot with "bad weapons" is getting loops, Wizard with a revolver only got a loop using Crystal, Qinji got 4 loops during the Gold Challenge, but the winner of the Suicide Pact Challenge did not even get a single loop. When players can show tons of progress with various other characters, yet can't get a loop with Rebel there is something wrong. I stand behind the evidence of the challenges; if someone has some evidence to counter the challenges then I'd like to see it.

[Sinlord]

Solid の投稿を引用：

And yet when people don't take the health related mutations while playing as Rebel and actually using her ability they have serious issues getting loops. Robot with "bad weapons" is getting loops, Wizard with a revolver only got a loop using Crystal, Qinji got 4 loops during the Gold Challenge, but the winner of the Suicide Pact Challenge did not even get a single loop. When players can show tons of progress with various other characters, yet can't get a loop with Rebel there is something wrong. I stand behind the evidence of the challenges; if someone has some evidence to counter the challenges then I'd like to see it.

I suppose i'd have to try it myself and see how it is compared to the other characters then.

[Electrical Panel]

The Rebel just sucks ok. thre so fancy ♥♥♥♥ to it. Shes just no good. There is no point in defending The Rebel

[KentukyFried]

Rebel just feels like a worse version of chicken. Both rely on health mutations, but chicken is better independantly.

[Electrical Panel]

Exactly

[Victor Ray A.K.A The Rain]

Honestly, I don't like playing as Rebel that much but I will defend her. When playing as Rebel you have to make an effort to use her ability and work around you mutations. I just got finished a session with her and it completely changed my playstyle it made me hesitate on mutations that I'd normally take and don't take. I do understand why people don't like her active ability, cause health is rare but it does create an interesting dynamic. I'll use a fight with Big Dog as an example I was pinned down by sniper fire and very low on ammo but I had a fair amount of health so I summoned an ally and let him take some shots, then I waited for him to be on the brink and summoned another one then I let both of them die and weaved Big Dogs onslaught to pick up the ammo their two corpses left it was enough to kill Big Dog. As any one else I would have had to wait for missiles to explode and then weave but that would have left me exposed to sniper fire.

tl;dr version: Rebel is okay, but you need to have the mindset to play her also allies kinda seriously suck without throne butt.

[Fred Kelly007]

I can see Rebel's Rebels helping out a big deal in unlocking Horror.

[Funcubus]

you could make it so that middle click tells them where to move?
that would turn rebel into a strategy game XD

[NullConstant]

I'm just gonna leave this bit from the Wiki here:
"Rebels throne butt mutation changes. Her allies will carry the same type of weapon she holds when spawning them."

Yay for melee allies. Shovel Squad gogogo!
(that said base Rebel needs a buff as well otherwise Throne Butt will become completely mandatory. I'd say reduce the cost of summoning an ally to 1HP and see how that goes.)

[Sinlord]

Rock or something の投稿を引用：

I'm just gonna leave this bit from the Wiki here:
"Rebels throne butt mutation changes. Her allies will carry the same type of weapon she holds when spawning them."

Yay for melee allies. Shovel Squad gogogo!
(that said base Rebel needs a buff as well otherwise Throne Butt will become completely mandatory. I'd say reduce the cost of summoning an ally to 1HP and see how that goes.)

1HP summon would be incredibly strong. I've had 10 allies summoned at one time with 2HP cost and I was wrecking the lvl completely, without throne butt. Having 20 allies instead? Hmm maybe :P

[Solid]

K. H. の投稿を引用：

Rock or something の投稿を引用：

I'm just gonna leave this bit from the Wiki here:
"Rebels throne butt mutation changes. Her allies will carry the same type of weapon she holds when spawning them."

Yay for melee allies. Shovel Squad gogogo!
(that said base Rebel needs a buff as well otherwise Throne Butt will become completely mandatory. I'd say reduce the cost of summoning an ally to 1HP and see how that goes.)

1HP summon would be incredibly strong. I've had 10 allies summoned at one time with 2HP cost and I was wrecking the lvl completely, without throne butt. Having 20 allies instead? Hmm maybe :P

This is a serious issue... 2HP is quite expensive, but IF someone gets certain mutations with Rebel then she becomes really powerful rather quickly. At 1HP the number of brick dudes would be insane with the right mutations.

I have a thought though; what if her passive was 2 health regen at the start of every level?

[Sinlord]

Solid の投稿を引用：

K. H. の投稿を引用：

1HP summon would be incredibly strong. I've had 10 allies summoned at one time with 2HP cost and I was wrecking the lvl completely, without throne butt. Having 20 allies instead? Hmm maybe :P

This is a serious issue... 2HP is quite expensive, but IF someone gets certain mutations with Rebel then she becomes really powerful rather quickly. At 1HP the number of brick dudes would be insane with the right mutations.

I have a thought though; what if her passive was 2 health regen at the start of every level?

That would give you one free active(paid back later). That would bring more incentive to use it. I like the idea.