Fish roll seems really bad, especially for newbies

[SquareDildo]

I'm an average player skill-wise. I usually don't reach the Big Dog. I played various characters, and the roll ability of Fish is one of the worst.

Honestly it looks like solution looking for a problem. What am I supposed to do with that ? I mostly use it for backtracking, and judging by youtube vids I'm not alone.

Even the idea of abrupty increasing movement speed in combat is questionable. It's like running with scissors. Nuclear Throne is not a game about kiting, and that's great. Fast reflexes and/or careful play are needed to survive. Rolling in combat does the opposite - it gives you LESS time to react, and without Throne Butt your character is impossible to steer.

I don't think it's possible to give Fish a useful ability based on moving fast in combat. The very idea is fundamentally broken, and the niche is already taken by Plant anyway! Scrap the ability and give Fish something else. There's no question Dodge Roll is hard to use effectively, and Fish is a mascott of Nuclear Throne, a character unlocked at the start. Such characters should be newbie friendly.

[Jalorda]

Honestly, making the Roll shorter and adding Invincibility-frames for it would make it so much better. It is a Dodge Roll.

[Granny Cheese Squeeze]

In Wasteland Kings i think the throne butt version did have invunerablitly. Like crystals shield in a roll form. Then when added with Gamma Guts Fish could roll into enemies!

[Zelinar]

Originally posted by Gojirazilla:

Honestly, making the Roll shorter and adding Invincibility-frames for it would make it so much better. It is a Dodge Roll.

Completely agree, however, for the sake of avoiding absolute spam, I think it should have a limited amount of invincibility frames (excluding melee attacks), that way you actually have to time the roll.

[Solid]

I'm going to completely disagree here. I see why people don't like Fish's roll and I was in that camp for a while, but I've taken the counter position. The thing is that newer players are in a stage where they are learning about how the game works. For them characters like Crystal may help them in the sort term, but will make them worse in the long term. The reason I say that is that is learning to dodge in this game, on paper the simplest thing ever, is one of the most important things you can pick up on. Fish takes the dodge and amplifies it. With him as you build up the awareness to avoid some shots then he will make sure you evade them. Yes, the bounce off walls thing can be annoying, but it is the price you pay for avoiding certain death at times. For more advanced players there are other tricks you can do like use the roll to get into melee range against Ravens so they can't shoot you. Am I claiming its a perfect ability? No. Should you spam his ability or use it all the time? No. However is his ability useful in a tight spot? yes. If a new person asked me what character play I would tell them they can make quick progress with Crystal or the like, however Fish will help with the fundamentals. I think some people will never like Fish and that is fine, but to label his ability as "fundamentally broken" is also a bit much.

[Thug Killadome]

Maybe instead, Fish's Roll can be invulnerable to touch-damage instead of bullets? It'd be like the opposite of Crystal's.

[Zelinar]

Solid are you actually forgetting that Fish is supposed to be the first available character, along with Crystal, at release? it shouldn't be a character that requires a particularly high level of skill or knowledge to use. Take OP for example, if he considers himself to be a newbie and shows a clear dislike for Fish's roll, then we have a problem with the ability. Besides, as I've said before, speed is not an issue in this game, controls are already responsive and fast enough to dodge the incoming bullet-hell.

[Solid]

Originally posted by Zelinar:

Solid are you actually forgetting that Fish is supposed to be the first available character, along with Crystal, at release? it shouldn't be a character that requires a particularly high level of skill or knowledge to use. Take OP for example, if he considers himself to be a newbie and shows a clear dislike for Fish's roll, then we have a problem with the ability. Besides, as I've said before, speed is not an issue in this game, controls are already responsive and fast enough to dodge the incoming bullet-hell.

Speed is a huge help. It can allow you to get in some shots at Big Dog and then escape a wall of bullets easily. You don't want to use the speed in small areas, but then there should not be a character ability that you want to spam all the time. Also just because someone does not like a character does not make that character bad. When I was new I loved Robot and got stuck in a head space of only using him for way too long (while ignoring the other characters). I'm not saying that people will pick up Fish and be instantly awesome with him. I am saying that his roll is 1) a good ability to use to avoid damage, 2) good at helping people learn the basics of the game by assisting in evasion, and 3) has some subtle mechanics that are useful to experienced players. If I was to give advice to myself when I was new to the game I would say to get good with Fish because the skills are so basic.

[actualized animal]

I actually think Fish's ability is pretty good. It gives him a great amount of mobility, allowing him to easily dodge shots and get to a much better position. Plus, you can also fire your weapons while in the roll, which is extremely helpful.

[TimidTofu]

My personal issue with Fish's roll is that it doesn't stop you when you hit a wall and even bounces you off of it. It makes it difficult to use in tight spaces or when one side of me is to the wall and a bullet is coming down along the other side. Like Zelinar said, I'd rather use the movement keys to dodge the bullets in that case rather than take the risk of bouncing around into stray bullets.

Sure, the One-Handed Challenge kind of taught me some neat tricks you can do to dodge bullets and better position yourself, but it takes a lot of precision and timing in comparison to just safetly walking instead.

[Solid]

Originally posted by TimidTofu:

Sure, the One-Handed Challenge kind of taught me some neat tricks you can do to dodge bullets and better position yourself, but it takes a lot of precision and timing in comparison to just safetly walking instead.

Previously you talked about revolvers and now you are talking about Fish's Challenge? Are you wanting for me to a Fish roll/revolver challenge? I mean I'm down with this. On a different note I support the roll bouncing off walls because if you are rolling next to the wall and touch it the roll does not come to a stop currently.

[Qinji]

id have to disagree with you Solid. I know that you agreed that its not the best skill, its not a skill that should be constantly spammed, thats great, but can it get you out of tight spots? well, sure but the opportunities for it to be useful in that way is both few (fewer even as the game progresses) and always at a huge risk. A player needs to be pretty well seasoned to be able to use the fish roll without inadvertently rolling into damage/death. In regards to my statement about opportunities for it to be useful: try using rolls as an evasive maneuver in the palace or in loops, it might work on occasion, but severely risky in all others.

Actually, it might even be broken: if you press roll again just before the first roll ends you roll in the same direction of the first regardless of where click. This is also a problem if you're sliding on ice, which you roll in the direction of the slide no matter where you click. Im not sure if they fixed this is recent updates, I forgot to check.

Anyways, so I think fish roll being useful comes in very few oportunities as compared to other character skills thats generally useful all the time like the shield, corpse explosions, dual wielding, poppop, minions, vines, weapon recycling, telekinesis, and slowing time. These are skills which retain their usefulness even in later stages of the game. I'd agree that playing Fish is better to learn the game than Crystal, but thats only because it forces you not to use a skill as a crutch to progress and learn to dodge instead.

[glass]

Right now, I feel that the roll is useful but not good enough. Fish is my favorite character, I use him most of the time. I use the roll all the time (yes, in mid combat too). I don't think the right way to improve roll is by adding invisibility frames.

There are a couple of ideas I thought of:
1. Holding down right click to roll, fish stops when the user let go of the button. This gives the user more control of the character, it might be very hard to master as you'll need to multitask your movement while shooting, I wouldn't really know till I actually try. Renders the current throne butt kinda useless.

2. Rolling over enemies to damage them. Maybe immune to explosions/touch damage while rolling? I think even without damaging, adding immunity to explosions/touch will be a nice touch.

3. Ability to absorb the first (or X number of) bullet that comes into contact when rolling. I think this might work out pretty well. But then again, you can't really know till you test it.


The throne butt to fish is not as good as I would like it to be. I'd almost never pick it. The first reason is because it will require me to learn a different set of muscle memory to use the ability effectively (AKA - ability to roll in combat knowing I won't face roll into bullets/enemies and die). The second reason is that although it gives you extreme dodging capabilities, other mutations tend to stand out more.

[unstoppable noddle machine]

as a fervent disciple at the church of dodge, I find fish's roll to be a suicide button. What made me appreciate and harness the power of the dodge was not playing chicken or crystal, because you don't have to dodge meticulously with them. Looping with Y.V. and Robot is what teaches you how to weave between bullets or try and trigger a bullet pattern amenable to dodging. I find fish's roll to be uncontrollable, lacking the finesse and care required to

A) Dodge what is currently on the screeen

B) Provoke enemies into shooting all their volley's of bullets into one spot so as to easily dodge them at once

C) Survive any kind of melee engagement (the movement speed + erratic attack pattern of most melee mobs does not lend itself to the suicide roll)

Disclaimer: Maybe I suck at fish's roll and it's acutally amazing, but after 100 hours of NT I don't think I have ever had a positive experience with fish's roll

[Solid]

Originally posted by Qinji:

A player needs to be pretty well seasoned to be able to use the fish roll without inadvertently rolling into damage/death. In regards to my statement about opportunities for it to be useful: try using rolls as an evasive maneuver in the palace or in loops, it might work on occasion, but severely risky in all others.

I think it is something you learn. It is like how when you play Robot you have to learn to not panic eat. I have never said it was easy. However I still hold that it has been of great use to me offensively and defensively.

Originally posted by Qinji:

Actually, it might even be broken: if you press roll again just before the first roll ends you roll in the same direction of the first regardless of where click. This is also a problem if you're sliding on ice, which you roll in the direction of the slide no matter where you click.

I would not consider an ability needing a tweak as an ability being broken. I think what you are talking about is a hold over from Crystal's shield and I agree that could use some work. When someone talks about an ability being broken they are usually saying something like...

Originally posted by Gryzomir:

I don't think it's possible to give Fish a useful ability based on moving fast in combat. The very idea is fundamentally broken, and the niche is already taken by Plant anyway!

Which is what I was referring to when I was talking about broken abilities. When they do not work or are completely useless.

Originally posted by Qinji:

Anyways, so I think fish roll being useful comes in very few oportunities as compared to other character skills thats generally useful all the time like the shield, corpse explosions, dual wielding, poppop, minions, vines, weapon recycling, telekinesis, and slowing time. These are skills which retain their usefulness even in later stages of the game. I'd agree that playing Fish is better to learn the game than Crystal, but thats only because it forces you not to use a skill as a crutch to progress and learn to dodge instead.

You are saying that Fish's roll is less useful than Rebel's minions, Chicken's slow time, Eye's telekinesis, or Robot's gun eating? I have seen your runs sir; Robot's only gets used maybe 3 times a level and you normally forget the others entirely. On each level I'd say I use Fish's ability about 10 times; more than I'd used Robot, Chicken, Eyes or Rebel. Sometimes that is to get around, but most of the time it is to get close to a mob with a shotgun/melee weapon or evade some shots. I'm not saying that his ability is not the best or that it could not be improved, but when people claim the ability is "fundamentally broken" I disagree.

Originally posted by elminister696:

I find fish's roll to be uncontrollable, lacking the finesse and care required to
A) Dodge what is currently on the screeen
B) Provoke enemies into shooting all their volley's of bullets into one spot so as to easily dodge them at once
C) Survive any kind of melee engagement (the movement speed + erratic attack pattern of most melee mobs does not lend itself to the suicide roll)

In tight spaces I agree that its harder, but in open areas clicking and moving in that direction seems fairly straight forward. (Also doing a roll into a melee mob is kinda silly.)

[damnyell]

I was in the "I don't like fish, his roll is risky and useless" camp for a long time.

But, while I think it could need some improvement.. like every character does, he's now one of my favorites! the fish roll is useful when dodging snipers, tanks or hords of bullets, it works with melee rolling into the enemy's direction and deflecting the bullets... and I always take thronebutt, there's nothing that is more fun to me in NT than nonstop shoot & boost around a whole level, but if you don't watch out it will kill you very fast.. tho it's more fun than any other character to me. and that he is a starting character is good, you can learn how to dodge bullets and you get more ammo!

to sum it up, Fish is the rambo of nuclear throne!