Some significant rule changes from the board game

[Zeus]

I noticed some changes that the game makes to the rules that are not mentioned in the FAQ. They are pretty significant, making life a bit too easy for the Marines, so I'm wondering whether it was intentional or an oversight. For the record, I would like to see it reverted to the board game version :-).

1. When you check the dice rolls in the lower right corner, Genestealers roll 2 dice for close combat, but they should be rolling 3 dice in any combat except against a Sergeant with hammer and shield.

2. While I don't really mind the automatic unjam, the fact that this happens immediately, without the Genestealer getting a chance to move a square without being fired upon, is almost game breaking. The Genestealers rely pretty badly on jams and the respite it gives them to have any chance of getting close. Besides this, the automatic unjams could also give away the fact that the Marine doesn't have any command points left.

So what do you think? Intentional Marine buff, or incorrectly implemented (or misunderstood) rules?

[jackx]

1) Are you playing on Normal or Hard difficulty? Easy difficulty reduces the GS melee effectiveness

2) CP use during the GS turn is the way it is to enable asynchronous play.
From what I recall from the board game, it's be GS action -> overwatch fire -> jam, -> CP interrupt to unjam -> next GS action (-> next overwatch fire) anyways, without a free GS action in between.

The auto-unjam can actually be used to the GS advantage as well, as you can try to force the unjams on a marine that isn't in immediate danger, then rush another one that you can actualyl reach when the CP are gone.

However, the ability to split moves is a much more significant rule change from the board game, and one that can really benefit the GS a lot when it comes to overwatch fire, as you can move the front GS 1 tile, then every GS behind 1 tile without takign fire, then move the front GS again, effectively creeping closre behind a living shield.

The AI of course fails to take advantage of this most of the time...

[tarpin]

Can you post the quoted rules in your post? Word for word please. :-) Then we can have a discussion about the rules without ambiguity.

[Andvari]

Genestealers roll 3 dice against my guys except the guy with the Storm Shield. Playing on Normal. The automatic unjamming is almost certainly to preserve the game flow. In the board game you can use a CP to take an action any time a Genstealers moves a square and it would seriously disrupt the flow of the game if the SM player was prompted to take an action every time a Genstealer moved a square.

I agree it might be prudent to to reconsider the split move rule for the Genestealer player.

[TehJumpingJawa]

Originally posted by jackx:

However, the ability to split moves is a much more significant rule change from the board game, and one that can really benefit the GS a lot when it comes to overwatch fire, as you can move the front GS 1 tile, then every GS behind 1 tile without takign fire, then move the front GS again, effectively creeping closre behind a living shield.

Is that really how GS movement is implemented?
I'd assumed split moves would be only applicable by the marines; if GS can do it too, that's a game breaking deviation from Space Hulk(tabletop) rules, and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding by the devs.

Touting this as a straight up conversion of the board game is imo a blatant lie.

[jackx]

I've definitely seen the AI move two separate GS in position, then attack with both of them, so yes, that's how everyone moves/can move currently.

It's probably in the game to make life easier for the AI, which I can understand,but it's really not needed for MP and if it works there, it should at least be an option that can be disabled.

[matthew]

or force it on normal and hard, easy should have this, but not above

[Shigoshi]

Yea, Spilting your AP in such a manner is just too good. The only thing that doesn't change is that you can use commands point in that very manner (spilting up actions) which is part of why they are so valuable but being able to split up your 4 free AP is just too good

[Andvari]

Originally posted by TehJumpingJawa:

Originally posted by jackx:

Touting this as a straight up conversion of the board game is imo a blatant lie.

Probably the reason they don't tout it as a straight up conversion of the board game, then.

[jackx]

Nice mis-quote there... I didn't say that at all.

Anyways, the GS AI is barely challenging, even if the human player doesn't use split moves for the SM, unless it were to be drastically improved, it simply needs split moves to not make a complete mess that even the most incompetent SM player can win against without effort.

[TehJumpingJawa]

Originally posted by Ixnatifual:

Originally posted by TehJumpingJawa:

Probably the reason they don't tout it as a straight up conversion of the board game, then.

I'm not talking about the devs, I'm talking about the plethora of fan boys defending this game based upon the misguided belief it is 'the boardgame, but on your pc'.
GS split moving will make the game play nothing like the boardgame.

[Zeus]

Sorry for this long-winded reply, but people wanted rules quotes, so they got them :-).

The rulebook states: "Each action witnessed allows a Space Marine to perform one action (this may be an action that costs 2 action/command points). The Space Marine's action happens immediately, and before the Genestealer carries out its next action." (page 11).

Further on it says: "The overwatch fire is resolved after the Genestealer has performed its action, so if this action takes the Genestealer out of the Space Marine's range or line of sight then there is no shooting."

Finally, from the official FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m500247a_FAQ_SpaceHulk_2009.pdf): "In the Genestealer's turn, you have to wait until one of your Space Marines sees a Genestealer do something. Then decide if you want to spend any command points – you may do so to carry out a single action with a single Space Marine anywhere on the board (not just one that saw the Genestealer do something). After spending any command points, check for overwatch shots for Space Marines that didn’t have command points spent upon them."

And from the Additional Clarifications by Space Hulk designer Jervis Johnson (Dec 6, 2009, to be found on boardgamegeek):

Q. If a Space Marine is jammed and has a command point spent on him to turn, and later another point is spent to clear the jam, would he go back on overwatch?
A. Yes. Note that, for the purposes of the rules, a Space Marine is not in overwatch while jammed, he is in a special 'jammed' status instead. The only way he can stop being 'jammed' is to either remove the marker at the end of the turn, or to flip the marker to overwatch by spending a command point. This is slightly counter-intuitive, I know, but it is how the rules are written and meant to work."

So to have a Marine spend a CP on unjamming, a Genestealer will first need to take an action. The action it took that caused the jam in the first place doesn't count, as the window of opportunity to spend CP because of that action closed as soon as the overwatch shot was taken.

This means: a Genestealer moves towards a Marine -> Any one Marine can perform an action using CP, losing overwatch if applicable -> Any Marine still on overwatch with LoS to the Genestealer that just moved has to take an overwatch shot -> a Marine jams, but can only unjam (spend a CP) when any Marine next sees a Genestealer perform an action -> the Genestealer moves another square towards the Marine -> Any one Marine can perform an unjam using 1 CP because of this move -> he can't fire an overwatch shot immediately because he wasn't actually on overwatch the moment the Genestealer's last move ended.

Based on the above, I move to request the devs to correct the jam rules.

[Vormulac]

Rather than changing them outright, would there be opposition to a "classic" mode where the rules are 1:1 from the board game?

[tarasis]

Originally posted by Vormulac:

Rather than changing them outright, would there be opposition to a "classic" mode where the rules are 1:1 from the board game?

That would be wonderful. Then it would be possible to play both as you please (I'd gladly swap between the two for some variation)

[Vormulac]

That's what I was thinking. I really enjoy the game as it is now, but the extra challenge based on what I read above also sounds fun.

[Andvari]

I think a bigger one is allowing the Genestealer player to split moves. That way if he has a row of Genestealers and one makes it one step closer to the guy in Overwatch, they all make it one step closer since you can move all the other Genestealers up behind the first one and then go back to the first one and move another step. Rinse, repeat.