The grind cycle ruins this gem of a game

[Your Majesty Padded Gamer]

This game is literal unplayable trash and I've had it after 40 bleeping hours of grinding. I hate playing as marine, her main weapon is trash and the entire character sucks. And I hate having to play as her for a good 20-30 hours of my playtime just to get 50 thousand coins so I can buy like one upgrade that doesn't even do anything.

And I HATE the fandom system, make me just play bleeping gatcha but all I get is a couple of ranks and the lazy devs didn't even put in more then one consume per character so its not like I feel like I'm getting something more then a rank up and some exp.

And also for the love of god, buff literally all the upgrades. I mean I have this many upgrades and level 3 isn't even "so easy I could do it blindfolded and backwards." In ANY OTHER GAME IN THE ENTIRE GENRE YOU WOULD BECOME SO STRONG THAT EARRLIER LEVELS WOULD BE A JOKE.

[Hurkyl]

gibbousmoon100 lähetti viestin:

Rather, I think the OP assumed (incorrectly) that the game could be played (with a balanced economy) only via the main battle mode. Everything else stems from that.

In what way is main battle only imbalanced?

The intended gameplay is the battle mode (with minigames on the side), not a money-making sim. You get a steady rate of progression with main battle coin drops, and you can never truly 'fall behind' or 'get ahead' because of the sliding scale of difficulty.

I characterize the OP as more getting the implicit idea that gameplay is about 100%ing the shop, and then did it badly. Not just in failing to exploring his options for getting to that goal, but also executing his chosen option badly.

I put that squarely on the OP's shoulders, not the game. But I'm betting social media had a significant impact here; early on OP probably heard about people farming coins with Marine on youtube or something, and that wound up shaping his concept of the game.

[gibbousmoon100]

Hurkyl lähetti viestin:

In what way is main battle only imbalanced?

In terms of extrinsic reward systems (gold, in this case), if you can profit 10 times as much (that's a guesstimate; it might be slightly less or even far more than that) doing one activity than another, then the game effectively corrals players into doing that activity. Yes, some players will stubbornly avoid it anyhow, and some players (such as the OP) simply won't know about that meta, but the meta exists regardless. Game design experts would call this an affordance.

What do I mean by "balance?" Well, ideally, both the Holo House and the main game would reward the player with similar amounts of gold, such that a player could ignore the Holo House completely if preferred, without (and this part is key, so please don't ignore it) feeling like they are being forced to grind unnecessarily.

"But it's entirely optional!" people say.

Strictly speaking, making ANY purchase in the shop is optional. But that type of argument is a non-starter, and I think people who make it are missing the point (or ignoring it deliberately). 100%ing the shop is similarly optional, but who *doesn't* seek to 100% the shop in a rogue-lite or bullet heaven game?

Also, and this is a slight tangent: Whether the Holo House was added afterward, and the gold drop rates for the base game were already considered balanced, is not actually relevant, because the state of the game as it is now is what defines its current design and balance.

[Hurkyl]

gibbousmoon100 lähetti viestin:

Hurkyl lähetti viestin:

In what way is main battle only imbalanced?

In terms of extrinsic reward systems (gold, in this case), if you can profit 10 times as much (that's a guesstimate; it might be slightly less or even far more than that) doing one activity than another, then the game effectively corrals players into doing that activity. Yes, some players will stubbornly avoid it anyhow, and some players (such as the OP) simply won't know about that meta, but the meta exists regardless. Game design experts would call this an affordance.

What do I mean by "balance?" Well, ideally, both the Holo House and the main game would reward the player with similar amounts of gold, such that a player could ignore the Holo House completely if preferred, without (and this part is key, so please don't ignore it) feeling like they are being forced to grind unnecessarily.

Okay, I want to emphasize a couple things:

Your concern here has nothing to do with the experience of playing the main battle game. It's about the relation of the main battle game to other options.

I offer the position that the "main battle only" game experience is fine. If nothing else in the game existed, Holocure would still be enjoyable. Progression moves at a reasonable pace, opening new options and getting stronger and whatnot.

I even offer the position that, if you want to grind coins in "main battle only", the game is still in a good state since you have a number of options for that.

(I reassert my opinion that, if OP is genuine, he is probably playing badly, and likely shopping badly too, maybe dumping coins into gacha ranks rather than attributes)

Those are the kinds of things I think of, if we were asking the question "is main battle only balanced?"

---

As a counterpoint to the coin gain relative to main battle mode versus minigames, I want to point out the side games being profitable is something that is often very much intentional in game design. E.g.

Strictly speaking, making ANY purchase in the shop is optional. But that type of argument is a non-starter, and I think people who make it are missing the point (or ignoring it deliberately). 100%ing the shop is similarly optional, but who *doesn't* seek to 100% the shop in a rogue-lite or bullet heaven game?

for the person who has played through a much of the main game and feels the urge to clean out the shop -- or maybe just really wants to get a specific expensive purchase -- and can't wait to get it naturally, you can go have fun with the minigames and make bank in the process.

This kind of thing goes lots of ways. In the other direction, sometimes people will complain loudly if the minigames aren't lucrative because they feel like they've wasted the time if the rewards aren't sufficient.

But the specific state of affairs that's a major issue is when the minigames are lucrative and also effectively block progression, meaning you would have to spend an inordinate amount of time at 'normal' gameplay if you want to move forward.

And I assert Holocure does not suffer from that problem because, as I mentioned earlier, the game does play fine if there was only the "main battle" mode.

[Apex]

Several things. One, as others said, if you dont have fun with a character, don't play that character. Two, fandoms are most efficiently increased by playing that character, the fandom exp for pulling characters maxes at 20, so if you already pulled 20 of said character that might be why you are not seeing an increase in your fandom level. Three, the buffs seem weak but are actually very powerful. They work by increasing a percentage per G rank, and as far as I know at least, there is no cap. Buffing those upgrades would cause to much of a focus on pulling characters rather than actually being good at the game and kinda ruin it. Finally, if you are looking for coins, there are multiple solutions. If you want, you can go for builds and characters for coin farming, or if thats not your style, you can play endless mode (you don't need hardcore), and get a ton of coins that way. A 40 minute run on endless for me can get me just under 50k coins. Another good way I've found to make coins is fishing, you can get a good rod fast and really start bringing in the money.

[Ghost]

Apex lähetti viestin:

Three, the buffs seem weak but are actually very powerful. They work by increasing a percentage per G rank, and as far as I know at least, there is no cap.

The buff also caps at 20%. You can see it on the texts below the portrait of the girls on each generation at the shop.

[gibbousmoon100]

Hurkyl lähetti viestin:

Your concern here has nothing to do with the experience of playing the main battle game. It's about the relation of the main battle game to other options.

I do not agree that they are separable in the way you represent them to be. You can choose not to engage with certain systems in a game. Sure you can. However, as I indicated above, the argument that "you have the option to gimp yourself if you like" is an asinine argument.

But the specific state of affairs that's a major issue is when the minigames are lucrative and also effectively block progression, meaning you would have to spend an inordinate amount of time at 'normal' gameplay if you want to move forward.

And I assert Holocure does not suffer from that problem because, as I mentioned earlier, the game does play fine if there was only the "main battle" mode.

Here we may have to agree to disagree. I cannot imagine suffering through the interminable grind of playing only the battle mode to max out my upgrades.

Is that what you did? I'm asking out of curiosity, but if it is indeed what you did, then you'd have a much stronger foundation for your claim that gold drops are completely balanced for players who prefer to ignore the Holo House.

[Hurkyl]

gibbousmoon100 lähetti viestin:

Hurkyl lähetti viestin:

Your concern here has nothing to do with the experience of playing the main battle game. It's about the relation of the main battle game to other options.

I do not agree that they are separable in the way you represent them to be. You can choose not to engage with certain systems in a game. Sure you can. However, as I indicated above, the argument that "you have the option to gimp yourself if you like" is an asinine argument.

It's not something I'm arguing, it's a basic fact of the discussion. We are talking about someone who only played battle mode. You have making assertions about the feasibility of only playing battle mode.

The fact there is more to the game than battle mode is wholly irrelevant to those topics.

There are other topics it would be relevant to, such as advice on how to coin grind efficiently, or about different kind of players' habits regarding making numbers go up. But it's not relevant to every topic under discussion.

But the specific state of affairs that's a major issue is when the minigames are lucrative and also effectively block progression, meaning you would have to spend an inordinate amount of time at 'normal' gameplay if you want to move forward.

And I assert Holocure does not suffer from that problem because, as I mentioned earlier, the game does play fine if there was only the "main battle" mode.

Here we may have to agree to disagree. I cannot imagine suffering through the interminable grind of playing only the battle mode to max out my upgrades.

Is that what you did? I'm asking out of curiosity, but if it is indeed what you did, then you'd have a much stronger foundation for your claim that gold drops are completely balanced for players who prefer to ignore the Holo House.

I have everything in A-Chan's shop. Well, technically I haven't gotten every outfit and maxed out G.Ranks, but I have more than enough money to do that.

(I haven't looked into buying out Pekora's shop, so I don't know if I could do that)

I never grinded for coins.

I just did some basic things like focus on the coin drop upgrades early, and pick up a coin generating item or two during runs if I could spare it. I occasionally tried out coin-focused builds just to see how they played out; e.g. it was fun really seeing how Irys's weapon could abuse the old greed stamp once or twice. But that's not something I did often enough to really matter.

But don't think I never went into a game with the thought that I needed to make money.

But my fun was not impacted back when I didn't have 100% shop either; I enjoyed the added difficulty. And every time new characters drop, I generally try to avoid getting gacha ranks in them at first simply because it's fun to try out the hardest stages with the higher difficulty settings.

[gibbousmoon100]

Sorry, I don't understand your answer. Did you grind out your shop upgrades without the aid of the Holo House? It's a yes-or-no question, but I don't see a "yes" or a "no" in your response.

[Hurkyl]

Oh, I got them before holo house existed. I had written that, but it seems I wound up editing that out on accident. Well, the things you could get at the time, of course.

[Hurkyl]

I feel like I should add that I'm only taking everyone's word for it that workers in holohouse are amazing for coin generation -- I don't actually know how it compares to a good endless run. I played with it for a while since it was there, but (AFAIK) didn't get close to leveling my workers all the way up before I got bored with it.

[gibbousmoon100]

Hurkyl lähetti viestin:

I feel like I should add that I'm only taking everyone's word for it that workers in holohouse are amazing for coin generation -- I don't actually know how it compares to a good endless run. I played with it for a while since it was there, but (AFAIK) didn't get close to leveling my workers all the way up before I got bored with it.

Ditto. Nowhere close to maxing them out. But they give me about 90k gold between each battle mode run.

As a result, I don't even bother with gold-related upgrades in the battle mode (whereas before I considered them top tier). Such upgrades have been relegated to "pointless" tier. That outcome was probably unintended, and I do consider it a smoking gun regarding balance.

[Madao]

Hurkyl lähetti viestin:

I feel like I should add that I'm only taking everyone's word for it that workers in holohouse are amazing for coin generation -- I don't actually know how it compares to a good endless run. I played with it for a while since it was there, but (AFAIK) didn't get close to leveling my workers all the way up before I got bored with it.

my workers produce about 370k coins in the time it takes to finish a normal stage. all of them are platinum but not all of them max lv yet. I also selectively chose workers with high initial stats and max lv so your mileage may vary.

I didn't touch holohouse at all until all of that AFTER maxing out the shop and g-ranks and buying all outfits. You can absolutely buy every upgrade in the shop, get all g-ranks and all costumes with just the main game. it was easy, too.

[Six Of Diamonds]

gibbousmoon100 lähetti viestin:

What do I mean by "balance?" Well, ideally, both the Holo House and the main game would reward the player with similar amounts of gold, such that a player could ignore the Holo House completely if preferred, without (and this part is key, so please don't ignore it) feeling like they are being forced to grind unnecessarily.

All the "pressure" is either self inflicted or external to the game. that's not the game's fault. That's a player problem.
I also don't get why both game modes should, provide the same level of reward? You can absolutely ignore HoloHouse. People have made very enthusiastic posts and threads stating their intent to do so.

gibbousmoon100 lähetti viestin:

"But it's entirely optional!" people say.

Strictly speaking, making ANY purchase in the shop is optional. But that type of argument is a non-starter, and I think people who make it are missing the point (or ignoring it deliberately). 100%ing the shop is similarly optional, but who *doesn't* seek to 100% the shop in a rogue-lite or bullet heaven game?

Because it is optional, call it a non-starter if you want. It is not the core gameplay loop, and therefore optional. Simple as.
As for 100%-ing the shop, I can't speak to the genre (because I don't like rogue-anythings, HoloCure being the exception, but that's a separate can of worms), but it sounds, again, very self-inflicted. The only thing making anyone pursue 100% of anything is the player. If you are pursuing 100% shop completion then, sure, using HoloHouse to farm coins instead of the main game is a no-brainer, imo. That doesn't make it mandatory.

The devs designed HoloHouse as a coin farm with minigames that require, as far as I can tell, none of the kinds of skills required to play the main game. You can AFK farm coins, get the upgrades you need to make it so you can play the game, and go play the main game, or buy the HoloHouse cosmetics, or gacha your oshi. Whatever you wanted the coins for.