Boss Battles or how to ruin a perfectly good game (mild spoilers)

[Ketraar]

This is a common thing I really dislike in several games. The final boss implementation. I love the world, I enjoy the settings, the story is OK. I don't really like melee combat so I often go the stealth approach, it's something I enjoy, like solving a puzzle.

This is why I hate the way these final boss battles are scripted. They don't care about your progress, they don't care about your "build". It's a linear "do these specific things in this order while we make a lot of noise around you" type thing. This is a tiring old trope and I wish for games to move away from it.

What the Final shores boss battle did was to seriously lower my enjoyment, because for 30min it forced me into a play style I avoided the other 100h I have played so far. It's a thing I have to endure to get to the end. I get the need for the beam in the sky type battle at the end, but I'm sure there could be ways to make it interesting and difficult without making it a punishment. I much rather just had a 5 min cutscene showing me the fight at the end, then having to endure it myself.

MFG

Ketraar

[james01]

Originally posted by Ketraar:

This is a common thing I really dislike in several games. The final boss implementation. I love the world, I enjoy the settings, the story is OK. I don't really like melee combat so I often go the stealth approach, it's something I enjoy, like solving a puzzle.

This is why I hate the way these final boss battles are scripted. They don't care about your progress, they don't care about your "build". It's a linear "do these specific things in this order while we make a lot of noise around you" type thing. This is a tiring old trope and I wish for games to move away from it.

What the Final shores boss battle did was to seriously lower my enjoyment, because for 30min it forced me into a play style I avoided the other 100h I have played so far. It's a thing I have to endure to get to the end. I get the need for the beam in the sky type battle at the end, but I'm sure there could be ways to make it interesting and difficult without making it a punishment. I much rather just had a 5 min cutscene showing me the fight at the end, then having to endure it myself.

MFG

Ketraar

That is what you like, that is boring if you wish games would be like that. Not everyone agrees with that, to each its own, you might want to play metal gear solid or call of duty.

[Ketraar]

Originally posted by james01:

That is what you like, that is boring if you wish games would be like that. Not everyone agrees with that, to each its own, you might want to play metal gear solid or call of duty.

Well since it was me writing the text one can assume that it's what I think or like, there is no need to point that out. I'm sure most wil have understood that on their own.

I did play Metal Gear Solid and I'm not a real fan of Call of Duty. Not sure what you want to imply with that or what your contribution to a possible discussion is supposed to be. Feels like you could just have not replied at all if you can't be arsed to elaborate on your point and just go for teh veiled ad hominem.

MFG

Ketraar

[Shalltear]

But isn't that like the purpose of a big boss battle? Almost everywhere in free roaming, missions, you can stealth, kill them one by one if needed. Big boss has lots of HP. specially on UH, or like the end boss, it's a big big machine, you can't stealth that boy.

Every game has it's flaws for each and everyone, but it's something you gotta deal with I guess. And for your purpose, stealthing, there's a lot of stealthing throughout the world. Just a few moments where you have to face them face to face.

I rather have a 5 minute battle than watching a cutscene. It's the purpose of the game, stealth, fighting, shooting.

[ᑕYᗷEᖇᑕᗩT]

Originally posted by Ketraar:

This is a common thing I really dislike in several games. The final boss implementation. I love the world, I enjoy the settings, the story is OK. I don't really like melee combat so I often go the stealth approach, it's something I enjoy, like solving a puzzle.

This is why I hate the way these final boss battles are scripted. They don't care about your progress, they don't care about your "build". It's a linear "do these specific things in this order while we make a lot of noise around you" type thing. This is a tiring old trope and I wish for games to move away from it.

What the Final shores boss battle did was to seriously lower my enjoyment, because for 30min it forced me into a play style I avoided the other 100h I have played so far. It's a thing I have to endure to get to the end. I get the need for the beam in the sky type battle at the end, but I'm sure there could be ways to make it interesting and difficult without making it a punishment. I much rather just had a 5 min cutscene showing me the fight at the end, then having to endure it myself.

MFG

Ketraar

Not a fan of the combat style in this game either bro. So much so that in those instances that I was forced into I found "workarounds" so that i wouldn't have to deal with the trash combo system.

[TH3R4BB!T]

I hated it too, being forced to fight the 'heavy machine' while doing a 'simple' side quest. Go fetch A, fight a Shellsnapper just for the hell of it, go fetch B, fight a Fireclaw for some useless loot, fetch C, oh that is inside a machine indented area.... no sweat. And so on with side quests, in the end you knew what would come. If they had stick it only to main quests, so you can see if you are ready to continue on. But really... a Shellsnapper is the worst kind of machine to take down, the top is a Splineslaugther.... even none Apex

[The_Dybbuk_King]

Originally posted by Aloy is Queen (::

But isn't that like the purpose of a big boss battle? Almost everywhere in free roaming, missions, you can stealth, kill them one by one if needed. Big boss has lots of HP. specially on UH, or like the end boss, it's a big big machine, you can't stealth that boy.

Every game has it's flaws for each and everyone, but it's something you gotta deal with I guess. And for your purpose, stealthing, there's a lot of stealthing throughout the world. Just a few moments where you have to face them face to face.

I rather have a 5 minute battle than watching a cutscene. It's the purpose of the game, stealth, fighting, shooting.

Don't bring logic to a pissing and moaning thread, boss. Dudes just gonna take it personal.

[Ketraar]

Originally posted by Aloy is Queen (::

But isn't that like the purpose of a big boss battle? Almost everywhere in free roaming, missions, you can stealth, kill them one by one if needed. Big boss has lots of HP. specially on UH, or like the end boss, it's a big big machine, you can't stealth that boy.  

Sure and again I get that this is the norm, the big sky beam at the end. My main gripe is the forced steps, not even asking for it to be a stealth level. It's just not very engaging to have to perform a predefined routine.

When you fight Londra its the worst, as you are in a confined space, and have to exactly do exact things in an exact order and timing. I don't consider this fun and goes against anything you played in the rest of the game, where you always had at least options to make use of environmentals, or strip a gun from a machine, or something. Here nothing, there is a railroaded way to accomplish the fight and if you make one mistake (especially in higher difficulties) you are stuck repeating the same level over and over. This is not good design imho and I'm sure could have been handled differently, it's not like the game doesn't already have good "boss fights" that dont railroad you as much, this was a choice and I feel it was a bad one, hence my observation.

MFG

Ketraar

[Bird_Dog]

I think I get what OP means.

A boss fight should be a final exam of what you have learned while playing the game, but the boss battles in Horizon effectively only test you on three of those things: Setting enemies into the right elemental state, hitting weak spots and dodging.

Stealth, letting overriden machines fight for you, or using the environment for your advantage are generally excluded even though those too are part of the regular gameplay.

[AshHinton]

Yep I hate game bosses too but I put up with them because they’re not going away anytime soon. If I refused to fight bosses I’d have to mostly stop gaming :-)

Thankfully you can, in games like this one, switch modes on the fly (normal - easy - story etc) and it’s what I do. Play on normal and switch to easy when the “here we go yet another boss fight” sigh leaves my body.

To those who want to beat the boss on extra super hard game plus crazy mode I also get it - each to our own :-)

[Erylaria]

yeah, i absolutely agree. the open world is open until it's time to go fight a boss in a small arena with limited or no way to hide. this is what these games do, and the majority of players are going to have fun with it. but as someone who also prefers to stealth-kill enemies one by one from a distance, this is really annoying and takes any and all tension out of the moment while i get more and more frustrated by being stun-locked every 2 seconds.

and i think this is where these games break their own promise: "approach me how you want!" "all playstyles are valid!" - so you learn a certain playstyle, the one you're comfortable with. and you have success with it, the game rewards you. but then it expects to to play an entirely different game during certain situations. with rules that you didn't learn because the game told you "play how you like!".

deus ex: human revolution did it (that one infamous boss fight, ugh), assassin's creed odyssey did it, and HFW is no different. it's annoying and i, too, would rather watch a cutscene, but it's not going away anytime soon. that's why i put the game on story for those moments and just hit the boss until it dies with no tension whatsoever. it is what it is.

[Ketraar]

Yes Deus Ex: HR is a very good example as the worst implementaion od boss battles. Which is why I was venting to the winds that maybe one day level designers get a whisper of it and stop doing it.

As mentioned, one can set it to story mode and endure it, but I doubt it's in the designers interest for their work to be felt as an annoyance. Again I don't think there is a wheel that needs reinventing here.

Originally posted by AshHinton:

To those who want to beat the boss on extra super hard game plus crazy mode I also get it - each to our own :-)

I'm sure one could create a boss battle that does both, allow creative approaches and be hard. In fact I much rather stealth to be the harder option in general, or any "alternative" approach to require more skill, that would be fine. I just don't find these railroaded levels to be fun, its not too far from being QTEs as you have to press a specific button at a specific time for the game to play itself. Don't think that is very interesting, I want to be able to try different approaches ideally, especially in a repeated playthrough.

Originally posted by Erylaria:

and i think this is where these games break their own promise: "approach me how you want!" "all playstyles are valid!" - so you learn a certain playstyle, the one you're comfortable with. and you have success with it, the game rewards you. but then it expects to to play an entirely different game during certain situations. with rules that you didn't learn because the game told you "play how you like!".

Exactly, not that the classes are done great tbh, but at least there's a hint of some RPG elements based on tools and skills, even though this is Aloy's story not ours, the elements are there so might as well let me use them.

MFG

Ketraar

[Pythagoras]

Totally agree with OP. IMHO, (or not so humble), That huge scripted fight its simply a cheap way to reduce the programmer's time and wrap it up in a big boss unpleasant and out of the usual Horizon's quests. Kinda like "OK boys! lets wrap this up and end the game no matter what, you have 3 days to finish".

Its important to point that games destined to teens and younger generations with working agile fingers can enjoy that kind of boss battle. Same reason why I denounce many other games that put huge battles at the beginning (not pleasant for old farts like me). Most of those are not true open world like Alloy's adventures.

But yes that its just my personal opinion. I can accept other's points of view. I'm simply mentioning it. Peace, please.

[james01]

Originally posted by TH3 SU!C!D4L R4BB!T:

I hated it too, being forced to fight the 'heavy machine' while doing a 'simple' side quest. Go fetch A, fight a Shellsnapper just for the hell of it, go fetch B, fight a Fireclaw for some useless loot, fetch C, oh that is inside a machine indented area.... no sweat. And so on with side quests, in the end you knew what would come. If they had stick it only to main quests, so you can see if you are ready to continue on. But really... a Shellsnapper is the worst kind of machine to take down, the top is a Splineslaugther.... even none Apex

its really to each its own, I like to encounter that shell snapper in a quest! lol, its so fun to fight with. For me, the bigger, the better is the combat. You should think of ways to outsmart the machine, say, it moves in circles within a certain region, then periodically jumps out. What if you place a lot of traps there? Its not just aim and shoot.

But yeah, I would agree, the rewards should have been better if you are fighting that stuff.

[james01]

Originally posted by Ketraar:

Originally posted by james01:

That is what you like, that is boring if you wish games would be like that. Not everyone agrees with that, to each its own, you might want to play metal gear solid or call of duty.

Well since it was me writing the text one can assume that it's what I think or like, there is no need to point that out. I'm sure most wil have understood that on their own.

I did play Metal Gear Solid and I'm not a real fan of Call of Duty. Not sure what you want to imply with that or what your contribution to a possible discussion is supposed to be. Feels like you could just have not replied at all if you can't be arsed to elaborate on your point and just go for teh veiled ad hominem.

MFG

Ketraar

You were generalizing that games should be in your liking.

Anyway, back to the OP, hide and seek for the boss fight in this game would be of course off the table now, as @AlloyIsQueen mentioned which I agree.

We can't either one-hit kill bosses or shot-and-hide as that is not the Boss mechanics, Well why is that so? Because of the following:

- they have stronger armors
- higher environment awareness
- bigger HPs. and
- what else makes it a boss: fearsome, scary, annoying, or everything you are not prepared for. :)

So, the only way to kill them one hit is w/ a Nuke, that is something we don't have.

[Ketraar]

Originally posted by james01:

You were generalizing that games should be in your liking.

Again thats a given, there is no need to state it, you can state your liking, thats how discussions work. No one is seriously expecting that devs listen to only me, but would be idiotic to try and say things I dont think or dont like.

We can't either one-hit kill bosses or shot-and-hide as that is not the Boss mechanics, Well why is that so? Because of the following:

- they have stronger armors
- higher environment awareness
- bigger HPs. and
- what else makes it a boss: fearsome, scary, annoying, and everything you are not prepared for. :)

So, the only way to kill them one hit is w/ a Nuke, that is something we don't have.

Now, if you mean its linearity in terms of play style in defeating a boss? You can still play it into your other liking except hide-and-seek in between sequences.

You keep missing the point. It's not about it being hard or cater to one specific playstyle. It's about the fact that its railroaded and does not allow you to play it as the rest of the game. Its a design issue.

Originally posted by james01:

For me, the bigger, the better is the combat. You should think of ways to outsmart the machine,

This is exactly the issue, as none of this is possible in the boss fight. Even at the start with the Horus, you are given an exact way to deal with the issue and your space just shrinks as the mission goes and and your options shrink.

Originally posted by Pythagoras:

Kinda like "OK boys! lets wrap this up and end the game no matter what, you have 3 days to finish"

Don't mean to imply malice on part of whoever designed this. It's sadly too commonly used. But it does feel like it a bit. I Hope this changes in the future.

MFG

Ketraar