When did Aloy become a jerk? AMENDED

[Zeno]

I'm about half-way through the game, and I've noticed Aloy's tendency to be abrupt and abrasive toward others. In one instance she actually destroys a stone wall which protected a settlement, directly and indirectly endangering the lives of all of them just to spite someone.

I was thinking: When did Aloy become such a jerk? and, Is this the beginning of some kind of character arc, where she works through her own issues and becomes a better person?

But then I noticed that she's not a jerk to everyone. She can still be compassionate and caring when she's inclined to be. What gives?

I think I've figured out the pattern: The targets of her abrasiveness are always white men who project any kind of ambition or power, all of whom are cartoonish lampoons of "toxic" masculinity, and all of whom apparently need to be brought low by the avenging angel Aloy.

White men who are weak or meek she merely tolerates, including poor messed-up Erend.

Has anyone else noticed this pattern, or am I seeing something that's not really there?

----
I've now finished the game, and gone back to restart Zero Dawn for good measure, on which basis I'd like to refine my initial post.

First, it's clear from Zero Dawn that it's part of Aloy's character that she does not suffer fools gladly, and she is often abrupt and even contemptuous of the most foolish of the fools.

Second, Aloy does seem to have something of a character arc in this game, coming around to recognizing that she can't be a lone wolf any more, that she needs others to help her. This has the effect of mellowing her a little, as the game goes on.

However, her contempt for certain individuals in Forbidden West has a different feel than comparable instances in Zero Dawn: what would have been an eye-roll and a snarky comment has become open hostility and a will to humiliate the target . . . even, in one instance, by putting an entire settlement at risk of immediate destruction, which is something Aloy in Zero Dawn would never have contemplated.

She would have followed Rost's teaching, and found a different way.

Also, the objects of Aloy's derision in Zero Dawn were generally men, but varied in other respects, including in terms of whatever genetic heritage they may have from the Old Ones (which would almost certainly have become more mixed in the generations since they emerged into the world); some are of indeterminate race, but not obviously European white.

But list all the characters in Forbidden West who are delusional, self-absorbed and mad for power - ridiculous parodies of "toxic masculinity" - and you may note that they are, to a one, pale-complected men whose ancient ancestors were probably all from Europe. Even just in Burning Shores, consider the Compliance Officer and Londra himself.

(So, not all white men in the game are toxic - the Admiral seems like a decent enough chap, for example - but all the most toxic people in the game are white men.)

The one baddie who is a black woman is treated as a great warrior who has been manipulated into serving the wrong cause, and in the end may be offered an honorable death. And Sylens, who did all that manipulating, is given a pass and welcomed into the fold of Aloy's team.

Is this "racism against white people"? I don't know, and that's not my point, anyway. I regard it as a kind of literary trope - "the toxic white man" - which in this case just gets in the way of good character development and story telling. Alongside other issues with the writing, the prevalence of the trope in Forbidden West makes Aloy's character inconsistent, to the point of incoherence, and in the end makes the game far less satisfying as a story than was Zero Dawn.

[The_Dybbuk_King]

ITT: Fragile males ♥♥♥♥♥

[boxinabox]

Publicado originalmente por Zeno:

The more I think about it, the more the incident at The Bulwark stands out as indicative of the problem. It would have been far more convincing had that been a low point in her story, had she realized that she had endangered the lives of innocents and was was at last forced to confront an underlying conflict in her character and to choose her path forward. Instead, the whole thing is treated as just obviously the right thing to do, and it passes without comment, without even a second thought. That's not spirit or spikiness; that's cold-hearted recklessness, an indifference to risks imposed on others.

Just finished the Bulwark quest last night. It's like Michael Bay took over the direction, and had this overwhelming need for a big explosion. And it was almost comical how blasé the residents were when you go back in afterwards. I still think the game is great overall, just some poor writing and sloppy conclusions here and there (like almost every video game I've experienced).

[Zeno]

Publicado originalmente por Ray:

she is a les now. They probably twist her personality to match it.

In terms of story-telling, the chemistry between Aloy and Seyka is one of the more convincing aspects of the game: they strike me as two people who would be drawn to one another, if not as lovers then as steadfast friends. The writers and actors did really well with it, I think, and the fact that the two go their separate ways - for the time being - because they both have serious obligations to tend to showed an uncommon degree of maturity.

As far as I'm concerned, that Aloy is attracted to a woman isn't a big deal; in any case, it need not be connected to my other concerns with the story-telling.

[Tijger]

Publicado originalmente por boxinabox:

Publicado originalmente por Zeno:

The more I think about it, the more the incident at The Bulwark stands out as indicative of the problem. It would have been far more convincing had that been a low point in her story, had she realized that she had endangered the lives of innocents and was was at last forced to confront an underlying conflict in her character and to choose her path forward. Instead, the whole thing is treated as just obviously the right thing to do, and it passes without comment, without even a second thought. That's not spirit or spikiness; that's cold-hearted recklessness, an indifference to risks imposed on others.

Just finished the Bulwark quest last night. It's like Michael Bay took over the direction, and had this overwhelming need for a big explosion. And it was almost comical how blasé the residents were when you go back in afterwards. I still think the game is great overall, just some poor writing and sloppy conclusions here and there (like almost every video game I've experienced).

Even games lauded for their writing have weak moments. The Bulwark wasnt a great segment but its only one, fairly small quest, in a huge game.

Also, even if you consider it weak you can also choose to look at it differently, Aloy simply doesnt have time to waste (I know, I know, so why does she go help god knows how many people she doesnt need to, right?).

[Tijger]

Publicado originalmente por fastica:

Publicado originalmente por Red:

Make Aloy a white male and no one would care. As usual, people ignore decades of white male characters doing exactly the same just to whine when a person with a vagina does it.

Well, to be fair, male protagonists in AAA games are quite imperfect humans full of doubts, insecurities and they feel more genuine because of that. Kratos in God of War, Gerald in The Witcher, Cal Kestis in Jedi TFO, Joel in TLOU and even Nathan Drake they all feels like real, imperfect humans. Aloy in this game is too perfect and condescending. I can't feel a connection to her.

Can you give one example where she is condescending? Shouldnt be hard.

[boxinabox]

Publicado originalmente por Tijger:

Publicado originalmente por boxinabox:

Just finished the Bulwark quest last night. It's like Michael Bay took over the direction, and had this overwhelming need for a big explosion. And it was almost comical how blasé the residents were when you go back in afterwards. I still think the game is great overall, just some poor writing and sloppy conclusions here and there (like almost every video game I've experienced).

Even games lauded for their writing have weak moments. The Bulwark wasnt a great segment but its only one, fairly small quest, in a huge game.

Also, even if you consider it weak you can also choose to look at it differently, Aloy simply doesnt have time to waste (I know, I know, so why does she go help god knows how many people she doesnt need to, right?).

Yeah it doesn't bother me overall as far as the game goes, it's just the last quest I did, so it's fresh in my memory.

[Zeno]

Publicado originalmente por Tijger:

Even games lauded for their writing have weak moments. The Bulwark wasnt a great segment but its only one, fairly small quest, in a huge game.

Also, even if you consider it weak you can also choose to look at it differently, Aloy simply doesnt have time to waste (I know, I know, so why does she go help god knows how many people she doesnt need to, right?).

Yes, even great games have weak moments.

Maybe my concern ultimately is that Forbidden West is not a great game, and that its writing especially is uneven. The Bulwark sequence is only the most glaring example; the inconsistencies pile up from there.

The result is a game that is just . . . okay.

Mostly.

[Zeno]

Publicado originalmente por Tijger:

Publicado originalmente por Rajackar:

I don't think racism has anything to do with it.
Aloy is just an annoying, condescending ♥♥♥♥♥ in this game.
I really liked her in the first game but in FW I can't really stand her and her arrogance.

Yet she hasnt changed so the conclusion must be that you are the problem.

What I'm coming around to is the thought that the writers didn't have a clear, shared vision of who Aloy is and who she should become. There's a little bit of an arc, but many, many inconsistencies along the way.

The Aloy of Zero Dawn was more coherent as a character than the Aloy of Forbidden West. I hope the writers can get their collective act together for whatever comes next, assuming the AAA game industry doesn't completely implode in the meantime.

[Blackwolfe]

Don't forget Sylens, a black man, whom she hates with a passion and threatens to kill. But whatever you need to tell yourself to put bandaids on your fragile egos...

Shame Lance Reddick is not among the living anymore though. He really played Sylens well.

[Zeno]

Publicado originalmente por Blackwolfe:

Don't forget Sylens, a black man, whom she hates with a passion and threatens to kill. But whatever you need to tell yourself to put bandaids on your fragile egos...

Shame Lance Reddick is not among the living anymore though. He really played Sylens well.

Aloy was harder on Sylens in the Zero Dawn than she is in Forbidden West and then, in the end, she recruits him to her team and seems to want him to redeem himself and become a better person. In the end, she kind of respects him.

But, yes, I was thinking about Lance Reddick as I finished the game, feeling the loss of him. Sylens was fascinating, as voiced by Reddick, and I would like to have seen how his character might have developed.

[HoboCop]

Publicado originalmente por Blackwolfe:

Don't forget Sylens

Who's pardoned and taken in, despite all the **** he did. Same goes for Regalla, who's treated as a vengeful Carja victim and Sylens' pawn instead of flat out villain.

[Tijger]

Publicado originalmente por P3N15:

Publicado originalmente por Blackwolfe:

Don't forget Sylens

Who's pardoned and taken in, despite all the **** he did. Same goes for Regalla, who's treated as a vengeful Carja victim and Sylens' pawn instead of flat out villain.

You can kill Regalla without any issue and Aloy clearly tells Sylens she'll kill him regardless if he crosses her again.
She doesnt pardon him or forgets anything, she just accepts that for her plan to work she needs to stay her hand and not kill him.

Also, Aloy helps and meets countless white people in the game, some characters are "toxic" or as we used to call it, selfish and vile people aka human beings but they're not all white.

[Tijger]

Publicado originalmente por Zeno:

Publicado originalmente por Tijger:

Yet she hasnt changed so the conclusion must be that you are the problem.

What I'm coming around to is the thought that the writers didn't have a clear, shared vision of who Aloy is and who she should become. There's a little bit of an arc, but many, many inconsistencies along the way.

The Aloy of Zero Dawn was more coherent as a character than the Aloy of Forbidden West. I hope the writers can get their collective act together for whatever comes next, assuming the AAA game industry doesn't completely implode in the meantime.

I disagree and besides that, no human being is bereft of inconsistencies, if HZD made her that way then THAT is bad writing, not this game.

Frankly, I dont expect great, literature levels of writing from video games, they're entertainment vehicles much like movies and TV series and their writing is similar in quality which in other words means "It varies".

[Zeno]

Publicado originalmente por Tijger:

Publicado originalmente por P3N15:

Who's pardoned and taken in, despite all the **** he did. Same goes for Regalla, who's treated as a vengeful Carja victim and Sylens' pawn instead of flat out villain.

You can kill Regalla without any issue and Aloy clearly tells Sylens she'll kill him regardless if he crosses her again.
She doesnt pardon him or forgets anything, she just accepts that for her plan to work she needs to stay her hand and not kill him.

Also, Aloy helps and meets countless white people in the game, some characters are "toxic" or as we used to call it, selfish and vile people aka human beings but they're not all white.

I did point this out in my amendment to the original post: clearly, not all white people in the game are toxic, but very nearly all the extremely toxic people in the game are white men, except for Tilda, who's an extremely white woman, and also a real piece of work . . . and those toxic people who are not white men - Sylens, Regalla - are offered a shot at redemption.

I see this less as a matter of "racism" than of falling back on a lazy literary trope in entertainment these days. "Need an antagonist to motivate the protagonist and drive the plot forward for another few hours? Look no further than Toxic White Man(TM)!"

[Rajackar]

Publicado originalmente por Tijger:

Publicado originalmente por Rajackar:

I don't think racism has anything to do with it.
Aloy is just an annoying, condescending ♥♥♥♥♥ in this game.
I really liked her in the first game but in FW I can't really stand her and her arrogance.

Yet she hasnt changed so the conclusion must be that you are the problem.

That's kind of the whole topic of this thread. That Aloy is very different in this game.
And that is something I agree with.

I absolutely do not agree with the white racism angle.
I'd say the game is very diverse and therefore some of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ characters will be white males. Also a lot of others ;-)