Why do people complain about the Lore in this game!?!?!?!?!

[RedDawnPhoenix]

I have a big problem with everyone complaining about the lore in this video game. This game is fun and fantastic and the lore is the best part. If anyone has read the Silmarillion or the Unfinished Tales by J.R.R Tolkien then they know that the game devs did a fantastic job on this.

[PiTTnj]

Agreed.

[RedDawnPhoenix]

Yay I am not the only one who thinks this! :)

[Noesanity]

all except them damn graugs, but they were added in LotRO

[Valkrex]

Agreed as well. I LOVED the references to the Silmarillion, but I have yet to get my hands on a copy of Unfinished Tales.

When they dropped the name of the Wraith for the first time I flipped out, like "NO! Its him? REALLY HIM? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I'M HANGING OUT WITH A ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ LEGEND!"

[Breejay360]

Originally posted by =AxA= Valkrex:

Agreed as well. I LOVED the references to the Silmarillion, but I have yet to get my hands on a copy of Unfinished Tales.

When they dropped the name of the Wraith for the first time I flipped out, like "NO! Its him? REALLY HIM? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I'M HANGING OUT WITH A ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ LEGEND!"

Thats what got me interested. When it was Talion/Wraiththing I had no interest. When it was revealed that it was Celebrimbor I got interested.

Unfinished Tales is a great read. My favourite I think. The story of Turin is worth it alone.

Heheh......they actually can't reference the Silmarillion in the game, or even when they discuss the game. It has to be in LOTR of The Hobbit or its off limits. :)

[MetalGearOpz87]

I honestly don't care. First off, it's just a video game. Treat it as non-canon and enjoy it as is. Second, I never read the books. I've only watched the films. So is not like I would care anyway.

I did get irritated when playing Star Wars The Force Unleashed. 'Cause the story was off . While Darth Vader's secret assassin is a cool concept, the story itself did not fit with the movies. But like I said, just treat it as non-canon and enjoy what it is, virtual entertainment.

[RedDawnPhoenix]

Originally posted by DarkWatch87:

I honestly don't care. First off, it's just a video game. Treat it as non-canon and enjoy it as is. Second, I never read the books. I've only watched the films. So is not like I would care anyway.

I did get irritated when playing Star Wars The Force Unleashed. 'Cause the story was off . While Darth Vader's secret assassin is a cool concept, the story itself did not for with the movies. But like I said, just treat it as non-canon and enjoy what it is, virtual entertainment.

you missed the point all together

[MetalGearOpz87]

Originally posted by RedDawnPhoenix:

Originally posted by DarkWatch87:

I honestly don't care. First off, it's just a video game. Treat it as non-canon and enjoy it as is. Second, I never read the books. I've only watched the films. So is not like I would care anyway.

I did get irritated when playing Star Wars The Force Unleashed. 'Cause the story was off . While Darth Vader's secret assassin is a cool concept, the story itself did not for with the movies. But like I said, just treat it as non-canon and enjoy what it is, virtual entertainment.

you missed the point all together

And what point is that? That people don't know how to enjoy a game because it doesn't fit with the lore? I thought that was the "point" you were talking about.

[TamaDasha]

Uruks are supposed to be the absolute ELITE of the Dark Lord's army. And yet this game just shows whole Mordor infested with Uruks. It would've been cool if majority of orcs were just normal breed, rookies and only special ones (defenders, berserkers, hunters) and captains were Uruk. Archers should be the smallest breed and wield bows, not crossbows. I've never heard of a Mordor Orc using a crossbow, it was kinda Saruman's thing.

Also, where are trolls? Wargs? Why do we get those weirdo Caragors and Graugs when there were perfectly fine wargs and trolls?
How cool it would be if some of Captains or Warchiefs were not Uruk, but Olog-hai?


Generally, I'm kinda pissed with the lore of this game. Writing is lazy, some decisions are really lame, and some stuff just doesn't fit.
Anyone else instantly guessed that the Shore Queen was controlled by Saruman? I mean seriously, she instantly looks like Theoden when he was "sick".
Why does the best character only get three missions? Talking about the Dwarf Hunter here. I can't even remember his name now. As a matter of fact I can't remember any names from the game after beating it, apart from Tallion and Celebrimbor. Oh and Ratbag, but he just kept repeating it into my face. This is not good writing.
And overall stoty feels VERY rushed.

[Zaukodar]

Referencing the Silmarillion was a nice little touch of garnish on the plate, but the plate remains full of subpar food. Examples include:

-Eregion was located in the North beyond Rohan, the game implies it was in Mordor itself.
-The Elves never established a presence in Mordor outside of the siege that ended the Second Age, after which they withdrew to their realms.
-All the Gondor-built barriers in Mordor, such as the Black Gate and Minis Ithil, were abandoned centuries before The Hobbit. By the timeframe of this game they were exclusively under Sauron's control, direct or indirect.
-Celebrimbor had no part in the making of the One Ring, he only made rings prior to the One's creation and use.
-Celebrimbor died well before the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, he could not have seen Gil-Galad fall.
-Death does not work the way Monolith says it does--when anyone dies, they are dead. The only spirits that remained among the world were specifically cursed. Celebrimbor (and Talion) would have gone straight to the Halls of Mandos and beyond.
-Likewise, the dead have no direct interface in the world, at most they could only haunt the living. Reforging Talion's weapons would be impossible.
-The hint of making a *new* Ring of Power, an already nigh-impossible task, would be absolutely foolish--all rings bow to the will of the One and Celebrimbor's knowledge of Ring-lore was still based on fundamentals that could be exploited by the One.

Now, in honesty, I ultimately don't care. That the game lore so blatantly contradicts established canon can be overlooked by the fact that the game is fun and that strictly following the lore would have hampered the game overall. It is fine to acknowledge the game as an alternate universe of Tolkien lore, but don't mistake that as Monolith being faithful to Tolkien's legendarium.

[Breejay360]

Originally posted by Simacan-Zaukodar:

Referencing the Silmarillion was a nice little touch of garnish on the plate, but the plate remains full of subpar food. Examples include:

-Eregion was located in the North beyond Rohan, the game implies it was in Mordor itself.
-The Elves never established a presence in Mordor outside of the siege that ended the Second Age, after which they withdrew to their realms.
-All the Gondor-built barriers in Mordor, such as the Black Gate and Minis Ithil, were abandoned centuries before The Hobbit. By the timeframe of this game they were exclusively under Sauron's control, direct or indirect.
-Celebrimbor had no part in the making of the One Ring, he only made rings prior to the One's creation and use.
-Celebrimbor died well before the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, he could not have seen Gil-Galad fall.
-Death does not work the way Monolith says it does--when anyone dies, they are dead. The only spirits that remained among the world were specifically cursed. Celebrimbor (and Talion) would have gone straight to the Halls of Mandos and beyond.
-Likewise, the dead have no direct interface in the world, at most they could only haunt the living. Reforging Talion's weapons would be impossible.
-The hint of making a *new* Ring of Power, an already nigh-impossible task, would be absolutely foolish--all rings bow to the will of the One and Celebrimbor's knowledge of Ring-lore was still based on fundamentals that could be exploited by the One.

Now, in honesty, I ultimately don't care. That the game lore so blatantly contradicts established canon can be overlooked by the fact that the game is fun and that strictly following the lore would have hampered the game overall. It is fine to acknowledge the game as an alternate universe of Tolkien lore, but don't mistake that as Monolith being faithful to Tolkien's legendarium.

Not a single reference to the Silmarilion.....they would be in legal doo-doo. They could only pull from the appendices. This actually causes the devs to tap dance around some specifics.

I never got the impression that it was implied Eregion was in Mordor.

Indeed, the timeline is skewed. Obstensibly, this is Jacksons LOTR world. They default to that timeline for various things, some of which you mention.

"Celebrimbor had no part in the making of the One Ring, he only made rings prior to the One's creation and use."

No, but it brought up an interesting point. Given the poem that the inscription came from includes a reference to the three, it had to have been inscribed after it's initial making. Something I had not noticed before.

-Celebrimbor died well before the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, he could not have seen Gil-Galad fall.
-Death does not work the way Monolith says it does--when anyone dies, they are dead. The only spirits that remained among the world were specifically cursed. Celebrimbor (and Talion) would have gone straight to the Halls of Mandos and beyond.
The dev's contention is that there is nothing in Tolkiens works that the dead MUST go to the halls of Mandos. And some have come back. Beren, at great expense to Luthien, and in his letters Tolkien indicated that Glorfindel of the LOTR was the same from the Silmarilion, reborn. They also point out that Celebrimbor is a unique case. He worked alongside Sauron for a long time learning the ring craft. Just as Saurons essence, will and power went into the one ring, the same was true of the rings Celebrimbor made. This could be argued enough to keep him from going to the halls. That the rings kept him in place as the one did for Sauron.


-The hint of making a *new* Ring of Power, an already nigh-impossible task, would be absolutely foolish--all rings bow to the will of the One and Celebrimbor's knowledge of Ring-lore was still based on fundamentals that could be exploited by the One.

Absolutely. As the dev's describe it, in essence Talion already has a ring of power. Celebrimbor. Talion is a corpse without Celebrimbor. Celebrimbor is using Talion as a tool. He is the one guiding Talions decision, getting him to do things he would rather not. Eventually that dissapears as Celebrimbor exerts dominance. Talion might never think of making another ring, but Celebrimbor would. Bad idea? Damn right! But hey, any worse than the Numenoreans deciding to war against the Valar?

Have you seen the interview they did with theonering. net? It's appeal is probably only to lore junkies, if that, but I found it to be a great listen. It was listening to the dev ( Mike de Platter ) talk about their approach to the lore that got me to try it. That man knows his stuff, as do the interviewers. You probably won't agree with them, but it will give you insight into their views and decision making.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SKwosdIZGA

Anyways, not trying to argue the points your making as much as get the devs thoughts across. You make good points, and I love talking lore. :)

[Zaukodar]

My apologies for any confusion! Even if the implication is not to Eregion, per se, the presence of the ghost towers and the Ithilden scrawlings point to Celebrimbor establishing a presence in Mordor to the end of challenging Sauron and/or trying to become a Dark Lord of his own. And even if we can glean from Tolkien's writing that Celebrimbor was taken to Mordor as a captive and even if we can suspend the disbelief that Celebrimbor inscribed on the One (which he would not need to, as torture would have enabled Sauron to learn of the Three and then write his little poem on his own), we cannot dismiss that the Elves never dwelt or built in Mordor.

[Sarcastro]

I am still trying to figure out how the Queen and her daughter are in anyway related.

[Breejay360]

Originally posted by Simacan-Zaukodar:

My apologies for any confusion! Even if the implication is not to Eregion, per se, the presence of the ghost towers and the Ithilden scrawlings point to Celebrimbor establishing a presence in Mordor to the end of challenging Sauron and/or trying to become a Dark Lord of his own. And even if we can glean from Tolkien's writing that Celebrimbor was taken to Mordor as a captive and even if we can suspend the disbelief that Celebrimbor inscribed on the One (which he would not need to, as torture would have enabled Sauron to learn of the Three and then write his little poem on his own), we cannot dismiss that the Elves never dwelt or built in Mordor.

No torture needed, Sauron knew about the three immediately anyways. Torturing was to find out where the three were, right?

Not saying your wrong at all. On any of your points.

One of the things discussed in the interview, is in many places Tolkiens meaning can be rather ambiguous. Which is how they try to explain certain things that do not seem to coincide with lore. One of those things was Orcs: Immortal or not? Elves are immortal, so are there corrupted brethren? They reference orc dialogue which look to events they remember from 100's of years previous.

For myself, I gave up worrying about trodding on canon with the release of Fellowship. At that point I just decided to enjoy such things as I would a story told by different narrators. Same basic story, that changes with the telling. If you want the real goods, listen to the original teller. :)

[Breejay360]

Originally posted by Sarcastro:

I am still trying to figure out how the Queen and her daughter are in anyway related.

I don't think they are? Original characters aren't they?