Shard of Narsil

[Urchin]

I just noticed in the "Meet Ratbag" video that Talion's "dagger" is actually the broken sword Narsil.

[smoothestjazz]

It's actually his son's broken sword Acharn, but I think it was hinted that the two swords are related in some way

[Verdant]

They are shattered in the same way but Talion's dagger is thicker...bow chicks wow wow

[Urchin]

Where did you get this info?

[smoothestjazz]

One of the many gameplay videos, I can't remember which one. I think it's the official one detailing the weapons.

[robomagon]

Originally posted by Verdagent:

They are shattered in the same way but Talion's dagger is thicker...bow chicks wow wow

That's what she said.

[BeanyUndead]

Hey there. Talion's dagger is called 'Acharn' which is a Gallic derivation of the word 'Acharne' that means 'to persist'. While it's not specifically mentioned in official Tolkienian lore, the writers have done their best to integrate it into the new story.

It is definitely not Narsil. I watched the video and I have no idea where that information is mentioned. Regardless, it is definitely not the broken blade that eventually gets reforged in Lord of the Rings into Anduril. Narsil is too epic and too ingrained in Tolkienian cannon to be randomly used by Talion.

That being said, Acharn is supposed to be the broken blade of Talion's dead son Dirhael who is killed by orcs at the beginning of the game when Sauron's forces retake the Black Gates from Gondor. Interestingly enough however, in the Lays of Beleriand (one of the original works of Tolkien) there is a sword called Dagmor that was once wielded by Beren Erchamion during the First Age (Beren is a legendary character from the Elder Days in Lord of the Rings). According to what little of the story exists in Tolkien’s notes, Beren wielded Dagmor against Morgoth (Sauron’s original master – basically a god of evil) during his invasion and pillaging of Dorthonion.

At that time, Beren was a ‘lone outlaw who gained a price on his head equal to Fingon, High King of the Noldorian Elves’ (this means he was a bad-ass). During this time, Beren was forced to cross Ered Gorgoroth (a huge mountain range) at which time he fought many monsters including the spiders of Ungoliant (Shelobs’ mother) and perhaps even Shelob herself. During the crossing, he lost Dagmor, which was “lost in the mountain crags”. The sword however was said to have ‘endured and persisted through time’, interesting considering that Acharn means ‘to persist’. Not only that, but Shelob, the giant spider wounded by Samwise in the Lord of the Rings, is said to have horded treasures within Cirith Ungol, some of them ‘impossibly old’ and that ‘many Rangers from Gondor had tried to pass through her lair’.

Here’s what I think the Shadow of Mordor writers are implying – Talion’s dagger is actually the shard of Dagmor, sword of the legendary hero Beren Erchamion. The sword was lost to the monsters in Ered Gorgoroth and eventually ‘retrieved’ or was perhaps ‘imbedded inside’ Shelob, who took it with her when she moved into Cirith Ungol atop the ‘secret stairs’. When soldiers from Gondor attempted to pass through Cirith Ungol, they retrieved the blade. Perhaps it was Talion himself who picked it up. He passed it onto his son Dirhael who wielded it when Sauron took back the Black Gates. It was broken when Dirhael was captured and killed and was retrieved by Talion.

So yeah, epic! Talion is wielding the Fury of Beren. Awesome.

[mistergutsy78]

Originally posted by BeanyUndead:

Hey there. Talion's dagger is called 'Acharn' which is a Gallic derivation of the word 'Acharne' that means 'to persist'. While it's not specifically mentioned in official Tolkienian lore, the writers have done their best to integrate it into the new story.

It is definitely not Narsil. I watched the video and I have no idea where that information is mentioned. Regardless, it is definitely not the broken blade that eventually gets reforged in Lord of the Rings into Anduril. Narsil is too epic and too ingrained in Tolkienian cannon to be randomly used by Talion.

That being said, Acharn is supposed to be the broken blade of Talion's dead son Dirhael who is killed by orcs at the beginning of the game when Sauron's forces retake the Black Gates from Gondor. Interestingly enough however, in the Lays of Beleriand (one of the original works of Tolkien) there is a sword called Dagmor that was once wielded by Beren Erchamion during the First Age (Beren is a legendary character from the Elder Days in Lord of the Rings). According to what little of the story exists in Tolkien’s notes, Beren wielded Dagmor against Morgoth (Sauron’s original master – basically a god of evil) during his invasion and pillaging of Dorthonion.

At that time, Beren was a ‘lone outlaw who gained a price on his head equal to Fingon, High King of the Noldorian Elves’ (this means he was a bad-ass). During this time, Beren was forced to cross Ered Gorgoroth (a huge mountain range) at which time he fought many monsters including the spiders of Ungoliant (Shelobs’ mother) and perhaps even Shelob herself. During the crossing, he lost Dagmor, which was “lost in the mountain crags”. The sword however was said to have ‘endured and persisted through time’, interesting considering that Acharn means ‘to persist’. Not only that, but Shelob, the giant spider wounded by Samwise in the Lord of the Rings, is said to have horded treasures within Cirith Ungol, some of them ‘impossibly old’ and that ‘many Rangers from Gondor had tried to pass through her lair’.

Here’s what I think the Shadow of Mordor writers are implying – Talion’s dagger is actually the shard of Dagmor, sword of the legendary hero Beren Erchamion. The sword was lost to the monsters in Ered Gorgoroth and eventually ‘retrieved’ or was perhaps ‘imbedded inside’ Shelob, who took it with her when she moved into Cirith Ungol atop the ‘secret stairs’. When soldiers from Gondor attempted to pass through Cirith Ungol, they retrieved the blade. Perhaps it was Talion himself who picked it up. He passed it onto his son Dirhael who wielded it when Sauron took back the Black Gates. It was broken when Dirhael was captured and killed and was retrieved by Talion.

So yeah, epic! Talion is wielding the Fury of Beren. Awesome.

+1 for mentioning Beren, but was his sword mentioned in the lotr books? I know the story from the Simarillion, but that's off limits( the Tolkien estate won't license the Simarillion)

[lefty1117]

There's no mention of Beren's sword, specifically, in the Silmarillion. I have not read the Lays of Beleriand so I have no reason to doubt Beany.

There's no way the weapon in this game could be Narsil. The shards of Narsil are in Rivendell at the time this game takes place and will ultimately be forged into Anduril, flame of the West, before the Fellowship of the Ring heads out on their quest.

They are already taking some liberties with the lore ... for example you can't "become a Ranger" - the Rangers are the Dunedain of the north, the last remnant of the Numenoreans that settled the northern kingdom of Arnor after the fall of Westernesse. The Rangers are what they call themselves after the northern kingdoms were destroyed by Angmar and they were reduced to a nomadic & guarded existence.

[Urchin]

Yeah, they looked very similar to me. Even the length and angle of the break. I think they may have started with Narsil and decided against it, then saved most of the art for budget reasons.

[BeanyUndead]

Originally posted by mistergutsy78:

Originally posted by BeanyUndead:

Hey there. Talion's dagger is called 'Acharn' which is a Gallic derivation of the word 'Acharne' that means 'to persist'. While it's not specifically mentioned in official Tolkienian lore, the writers have done their best to integrate it into the new story.

It is definitely not Narsil. I watched the video and I have no idea where that information is mentioned. Regardless, it is definitely not the broken blade that eventually gets reforged in Lord of the Rings into Anduril. Narsil is too epic and too ingrained in Tolkienian cannon to be randomly used by Talion.

That being said, Acharn is supposed to be the broken blade of Talion's dead son Dirhael who is killed by orcs at the beginning of the game when Sauron's forces retake the Black Gates from Gondor. Interestingly enough however, in the Lays of Beleriand (one of the original works of Tolkien) there is a sword called Dagmor that was once wielded by Beren Erchamion during the First Age (Beren is a legendary character from the Elder Days in Lord of the Rings). According to what little of the story exists in Tolkien’s notes, Beren wielded Dagmor against Morgoth (Sauron’s original master – basically a god of evil) during his invasion and pillaging of Dorthonion.

At that time, Beren was a ‘lone outlaw who gained a price on his head equal to Fingon, High King of the Noldorian Elves’ (this means he was a bad-ass). During this time, Beren was forced to cross Ered Gorgoroth (a huge mountain range) at which time he fought many monsters including the spiders of Ungoliant (Shelobs’ mother) and perhaps even Shelob herself. During the crossing, he lost Dagmor, which was “lost in the mountain crags”. The sword however was said to have ‘endured and persisted through time’, interesting considering that Acharn means ‘to persist’. Not only that, but Shelob, the giant spider wounded by Samwise in the Lord of the Rings, is said to have horded treasures within Cirith Ungol, some of them ‘impossibly old’ and that ‘many Rangers from Gondor had tried to pass through her lair’.

Here’s what I think the Shadow of Mordor writers are implying – Talion’s dagger is actually the shard of Dagmor, sword of the legendary hero Beren Erchamion. The sword was lost to the monsters in Ered Gorgoroth and eventually ‘retrieved’ or was perhaps ‘imbedded inside’ Shelob, who took it with her when she moved into Cirith Ungol atop the ‘secret stairs’. When soldiers from Gondor attempted to pass through Cirith Ungol, they retrieved the blade. Perhaps it was Talion himself who picked it up. He passed it onto his son Dirhael who wielded it when Sauron took back the Black Gates. It was broken when Dirhael was captured and killed and was retrieved by Talion.

So yeah, epic! Talion is wielding the Fury of Beren. Awesome.

+1 for mentioning Beren, but was his sword mentioned in the lotr books? I know the story from the Simarillion, but that's off limits( the Tolkien estate won't license the Simarillion)

Yeah, it's disappointing that they are hording the most interesting (if not painstakingly arduous to slog through) work of Tolkien. I think the restricted licence might be the reason why they are making implications rather than direction connections. Then again, the developers might have just, in creating the story behind the dagger Acharn and its name, created an accidental link (the link outlined in my post).

For example, in Sindarin, Tolkien's created language, 'Acharn' actually means 'continued vengeance' rather than 'persistent' which is a Gallic translation. Then again, as Sindarin is based heavily on Galic, norse and some latin, and as the Gallic translation of 'Acharne' is persistence, it could mean 'persistent vengeance'. But then again, the devs could just have called it Acharn for its 'vengence' connection (because Talian is trying to avenge is son) and all of these highfaluting connections to the original lore are coincidental. Difficult to say. But that's the fun of stories set in worlds with such deep lore.

Originally posted by lefty1117:

There's no mention of Beren's sword, specifically, in the Silmarillion. I have not read the Lays of Beleriand so I have no reason to doubt Beany.

There's no way the weapon in this game could be Narsil. The shards of Narsil are in Rivendell at the time this game takes place and will ultimately be forged into Anduril, flame of the West, before the Fellowship of the Ring heads out on their quest.

They are already taking some liberties with the lore ... for example you can't "become a Ranger" - the Rangers are the Dunedain of the north, the last remnant of the Numenoreans that settled the northern kingdom of Arnor after the fall of Westernesse. The Rangers are what they call themselves after the northern kingdoms were destroyed by Angmar and they were reduced to a nomadic & guarded existence.

I could be wrong here but I believe there are two 'types' of Ranger - Rangers of the North and Rangers of Ithilien. The Rangers of the North are an ethnicity, with bloodlines that stretch back to the Dunedain of Arnor. However, these rangers are extremely rare. Aragorn was their leader in the books but they are described as ‘scattered and diminished’, the term ‘Ranger of the North’ having been coined by Gondorian Scouts to describe the mysterious Arnorians of Eriador that fought in a similar way to their own Rangers of Ithilien. The Rangers of the North actually refer to themselves as ‘The Men of Westernesse’, considering ‘Rangers of the North’ to be an almost derogatory term. This is hinted upon when Denethor states ‘I will not bow to this Ranger of the North’ referring to Aragorn, as though the title diminishes Aragorn’s claim to the throne.

Rangers of Ithilien however are a different story. Unlike the Rangers of the North, the title given to a race of ancient Arnorians, the Rangers of Ithilien are a Gondorian military group populated by troops who ancestors occupied Eastern Gondor in the early days. The Black Gate, following the retreat of the Necromancer, was occupied by Rangers of Ithilien, then simply known as Rangers. It was definitely not guarded by Rangers of the North. To add to the confusion, the group of Ithilien Rangers tasked with holding the Black Gate were sometimes referred to as Northern Rangers to differentiate themselves from the Eastern Rangers (who guarded the passes to Minas Morgul) and the Rangers of Osgiliath (who guarded the first capital of Gondor).

The Rangers of Ithilien were a Gondorian military unit and therefore had a recruiting process. However, it was restricted to those with blood connections to Eastern Gondor, specifically Ithilien and the surrounding marshlands. Talian should therefore be a Ranger of Ithilien.

[TreflehExe]

Originally posted by BeanyUndead:

Originally posted by mistergutsy78:

+1 for mentioning Beren, but was his sword mentioned in the lotr books? I know the story from the Simarillion, but that's off limits( the Tolkien estate won't license the Simarillion)

Yeah, it's disappointing that they are hording the most interesting (if not painstakingly arduous to slog through) work of Tolkien. I think the restricted licence might be the reason why they are making implications rather than direction connections. Then again, the developers might have just, in creating the story behind the dagger Acharn and its name, created an accidental link (the link outlined in my post).

For example, in Sindarin, Tolkien's created language, 'Acharn' actually means 'continued vengeance' rather than 'persistent' which is a Gallic translation. Then again, as Sindarin is based heavily on Galic, norse and some latin, and as the Gallic translation of 'Acharne' is persistence, it could mean 'persistent vengeance'. But then again, the devs could just have called it Acharn for its 'vengence' connection (because Talian is trying to avenge is son) and all of these highfaluting connections to the original lore are coincidental. Difficult to say. But that's the fun of stories set in worlds with such deep lore.

Originally posted by lefty1117:

There's no mention of Beren's sword, specifically, in the Silmarillion. I have not read the Lays of Beleriand so I have no reason to doubt Beany.

There's no way the weapon in this game could be Narsil. The shards of Narsil are in Rivendell at the time this game takes place and will ultimately be forged into Anduril, flame of the West, before the Fellowship of the Ring heads out on their quest.

They are already taking some liberties with the lore ... for example you can't "become a Ranger" - the Rangers are the Dunedain of the north, the last remnant of the Numenoreans that settled the northern kingdom of Arnor after the fall of Westernesse. The Rangers are what they call themselves after the northern kingdoms were destroyed by Angmar and they were reduced to a nomadic & guarded existence.

I could be wrong here but I believe there are two 'types' of Ranger - Rangers of the North and Rangers of Ithilien. The Rangers of the North are an ethnicity, with bloodlines that stretch back to the Dunedain of Arnor. However, these rangers are extremely rare. Aragorn was their leader in the books but they are described as ‘scattered and diminished’, the term ‘Ranger of the North’ having been coined by Gondorian Scouts to describe the mysterious Arnorians of Eriador that fought in a similar way to their own Rangers of Ithilien. The Rangers of the North actually refer to themselves as ‘The Men of Westernesse’, considering ‘Rangers of the North’ to be an almost derogatory term. This is hinted upon when Denethor states ‘I will not bow to this Ranger of the North’ referring to Aragorn, as though the title diminishes Aragorn’s claim to the throne.

Rangers of Ithilien however are a different story. Unlike the Rangers of the North, the title given to a race of ancient Arnorians, the Rangers of Ithilien are a Gondorian military group populated by troops who ancestors occupied Eastern Gondor in the early days. The Black Gate, following the retreat of the Necromancer, was occupied by Rangers of Ithilien, then simply known as Rangers. It was definitely not guarded by Rangers of the North. To add to the confusion, the group of Ithilien Rangers tasked with holding the Black Gate were sometimes referred to as Northern Rangers to differentiate themselves from the Eastern Rangers (who guarded the passes to Minas Morgul) and the Rangers of Osgiliath (who guarded the first capital of Gondor).

The Rangers of Ithilien were a Gondorian military unit and therefore had a recruiting process. However, it was restricted to those with blood connections to Eastern Gondor, specifically Ithilien and the surrounding marshlands. Talian should therefore be a Ranger of Ithilien.

Rangers of Ithilien are also Dunedain. The blood of the Eldar gives them hightened senses just like the Ranger's of the North.

[OdanUrr]

Pretend I just spit coffee at the screen and then regained some composure after confirming they didn't make such a blatant mistake.

[α PIRATEorNINJA Ω]

this is cool stuff guys. keep going.... lol

and yea when i saw the blade it looked like NArsil for sure but i knew it couldnt be, it would be a unforgiveable mistake

[TreflehExe]

I have also heard of Athala Ranger's. They were in Third Age Total War but I can not find anything about them right now. They could have been just made up for that mod.

Boromir, Faramir, and Denethor of the House of Stewards were Dunedain, but very distant. Aragorn being the heir to Isildur had more dunedain blood in him. Aragorn was about 88 years old at the time of the War on the Ring. He was born 2931 Third age and died 120 Fourth age. The Third age ended 3019

[BeanyUndead]

Originally posted by Trefleh:

Originally posted by BeanyUndead:

Yeah, it's disappointing that they are hording the most interesting (if not painstakingly arduous to slog through) work of Tolkien. I think the restricted licence might be the reason why they are making implications rather than direction connections. Then again, the developers might have just, in creating the story behind the dagger Acharn and its name, created an accidental link (the link outlined in my post).

For example, in Sindarin, Tolkien's created language, 'Acharn' actually means 'continued vengeance' rather than 'persistent' which is a Gallic translation. Then again, as Sindarin is based heavily on Galic, norse and some latin, and as the Gallic translation of 'Acharne' is persistence, it could mean 'persistent vengeance'. But then again, the devs could just have called it Acharn for its 'vengence' connection (because Talian is trying to avenge is son) and all of these highfaluting connections to the original lore are coincidental. Difficult to say. But that's the fun of stories set in worlds with such deep lore.




I could be wrong here but I believe there are two 'types' of Ranger - Rangers of the North and Rangers of Ithilien. The Rangers of the North are an ethnicity, with bloodlines that stretch back to the Dunedain of Arnor. However, these rangers are extremely rare. Aragorn was their leader in the books but they are described as ‘scattered and diminished’, the term ‘Ranger of the North’ having been coined by Gondorian Scouts to describe the mysterious Arnorians of Eriador that fought in a similar way to their own Rangers of Ithilien. The Rangers of the North actually refer to themselves as ‘The Men of Westernesse’, considering ‘Rangers of the North’ to be an almost derogatory term. This is hinted upon when Denethor states ‘I will not bow to this Ranger of the North’ referring to Aragorn, as though the title diminishes Aragorn’s claim to the throne.

Rangers of Ithilien however are a different story. Unlike the Rangers of the North, the title given to a race of ancient Arnorians, the Rangers of Ithilien are a Gondorian military group populated by troops who ancestors occupied Eastern Gondor in the early days. The Black Gate, following the retreat of the Necromancer, was occupied by Rangers of Ithilien, then simply known as Rangers. It was definitely not guarded by Rangers of the North. To add to the confusion, the group of Ithilien Rangers tasked with holding the Black Gate were sometimes referred to as Northern Rangers to differentiate themselves from the Eastern Rangers (who guarded the passes to Minas Morgul) and the Rangers of Osgiliath (who guarded the first capital of Gondor).

The Rangers of Ithilien were a Gondorian military unit and therefore had a recruiting process. However, it was restricted to those with blood connections to Eastern Gondor, specifically Ithilien and the surrounding marshlands. Talian should therefore be a Ranger of Ithilien.

Rangers of Ithilien are also Dunedain. The blood of the Eldar gives them hightened senses just like the Ranger's of the North.

Interesting. You are right of course, but I don't think they are full Dunedain. I know that the Rangers of Ithilien definately do not live as long as full-blooded Dunediain like Aragorn. However, they do have, as you said, heightened senses because of their blood. It does say in the Silmarilion that the men of Arnor built cities as far south as Ithilien so its possible that the early population of Eastern Gondor interbred with the Dunedain and produced the Ilithien bloodlines that eventually went on to populated the ranks of the Rangers of Ithilien. However, the Rangers of the North are full Dunedian and like Aragorn, are incredibly long lived and almost supernatural with regards to their abilities to track and fight. They are therefore quite distinct from the Rangers of Ithilien.