Mining Cave In

[aKiss4Luck]

Pros:

Love this game, and I love the idea of mining.
(I run a Minecraft sever, I do love me some mining.)
I like the look of the mines. Oooh, shiny, gems!
And new stuff is fun.
My first impression was: YAY!

Cons:

The balance feels seriously wrong.
We have about 215 items to farm, fish, and tend in this game and about 1/3 of the quests I'm getting since the update include the mere FIVE gems now on offer?

Yep, so far I've been "lucky" enough to have about 1/3 of all the quests I've gotten since the update require gems. Lots of them. And based on the current rate of mining, completing the first gem quest for me will take another day or more... if I get up in the night - like I did last night! - to keep mining. So I dropped them all; I need my sleep.

I don't mind, at all, waiting 4 days on enough carnations to finish a quest... but if I had to click those carnations every hour or two to get 5 at a time for days... well... I could mine in Palia instead; it's fun there.

***
With a mine running since the update I have exactly ZERO of the 90 types of gems required to level up my shops in town today. Zero. None. Not a one. Of NINETY. And I just stopped writing to do mining again; you know how many gems dropped to help with levelling my shops today? NONE. Again. Not a gem in sight. I need 90.... yay, I can level those shops by Easter!

This feels like a serious problem.
***

Mining sounds fun... but so far feels like a cave-in.

DEVS: It's a FARMING game, we understand you're excited about your new toy, but must you stone us to death with a rock-slide of tedium? Too many gem quests in balance with everything else in the game, shops requiring too many gems to level them up, and gem drops so rare as to make no sense. The balance feels weighted with far too many pebbles on one side of this scale. Challenges are awesome, but I've never had a desire to be Sisyphus.

Other than the current case of black-lung - and not enough house furnishings being on offer (the constant complaint I hear about in streams) - I do love this game. I have over 5K hours in the first version, and had hoped to have even more in this one. I feel you've stubbed your toe on the cobblestones with this update, but (mostly) the game is a beauty. Thank you.

[Kerbyboo]

I agree, and you worded it so perfectly! Thank you!

[WaaghMan]

Hello,

Thank you for the feedback. Yes, the new feature may require some balancing in regards to numbers. We've already lowered the amount of gems required for shop upgrades, we may need to lower amounts asked on quests too.

[aKiss4Luck]

Originally posted by WaaghMan:

Hello,

Thank you for the feedback. Yes, the new feature may require some balancing in regards to numbers. We've already lowered the amount of gems required for shop upgrades, we may need to lower amounts asked on quests too.

Thank you for noticing Devs, it's much appreciated!

And perhaps someday when we get enough gems to open the mine further the balance will smooth out some. But for now.... if I have 0 of 90... or you lower the amounts and I have 0 of 40.... I'm not really seeing a great improvement.

I'm not sure how to explain what I want to say, so please bear with me.....

I've played the Farm Together games for years and thousands of hours. You, your company, has taught me that clicking on food on the stove, on a painting, on a plant, anything that has gone it's full allotted time, means I get a product or stage completed. I have DONE something. That is my reward for showing up. Things have progressed. A tiny blast of satisfaction and one keeps playing, just one more row, just one more harvest, because all those little bits of happy that hit us when we get a thing accomplished are nice to feel. We play more. We are happy. We invite our friends to come play too.

That is the game you've been selling us. That is the deal we have between us.

Now with the mines, a stage completes and you see "Nothing, Nothing, 20% chance of something (80% chance of nothing!), Nothing, 20% chance". Which too often means I showed up for nothing at all.

Then that vicious drop rate means other goals are locked behind something you can't do anything about. That, right there, feels like it could be a game breaker.

I can't plant more plants to get more of a type faster. I can't harvest all the trees more often, I can't buy more pigs to finish off a large quest sooner, I can't get another farmhand to help out, etc. I can't even know when I come back in 8 hours or 12 hours or tomorrow at least then something can be completed then, done, a blast of wee happiness, I win! I can't do all the things you've taught me was part of our deal.

With the mine I can't DO, or CHANGE anything at all. I can't buy another 9 mines to improve my chance to level my shops in town before I'm too old to care. I can't wait until tomorrow to see a bunch of nodes ready and filled to harvest, because it will be the same dismal drop chance then as today and nothing will have improved at all.

I have ONE mine. No more available. I see no equipment I can hope to buy to make the mining faster or more efficient. I am helpless to time and a low chance of success. Instead of wee bits of happy, I feel repeated failure and tiny blasts of frustration. With NOTHING being offered to improve the matter.

Imagine this game allowed me to plant 10 potatoes at a time, then after waiting hours until they were grown, I clicked on them and found "Nothing, nothing, 20% chance of 1 potato, nothing, 20% chance of 1 potato." How many harvests, how many hours would I have to go through to get that wee blast of happy that makes me want to play more? How many "empty clicks" and pointless hours would it take to get that 90 potatoes I needed to do something else in the game I believed I would be allowed to do today? How successful would that game be I wonder?

That feels less like "offering a challenge" and more like bad game psychology.

Example: in an MMO that has some rare drop on an item I want from a boss... yeah, there will be constant, repeated frustration, but I am allowed to feel that I have some control, some ability to improve my own chances. I can learn the fight better, get better gear, make the fight finish faster so I can do it more often, I can DO something to move my own goals ahead. The mine, in it's current state, does not offer that.

We enjoy working toward goals, feeling like we've done something, moved ahead. A constant feeling of frustration and failure isn't really conductive to wanting to stick around.

If the mine was something I could simply drop the quests on and ignore until I'd managed to level it up enough to open more, fine. If I could buy more mines, fine. If the nodes were done every 15 minutes and I had more chances, fine.

But today, right now, that mine is holding other parts of the game hostage. If I play 2-4 hours a day I only get 2-3 chances to click. With luck I might end up with a gem or 2. And I need 90 just today to do what I'd wanted to do today. And there is nothing I can do to improve that. It's not a pleasant feeling.

Anyway, forgive the ramble (I really was up in the night a few times doing that damn mine hoping for the odd gem)... thinking is hard today, I"m tired. I hope some of this made some sense.

Sorry.

[WaaghMan]

Just to make sure, you're clicking on all the 10 mining spots, right?

Because having 0 resources after clicking on the 10 spots means you've been VERY unlucky, and usually you'll get 3-5 resources.

[gbmkennedy]

I'm sorry I also agree. Everything needs diamonds now and since I have been really trying to expand my new farm (which requires a lot of diamonds) I really don't want to spend MORE diamonds on gems that work like the old fish where there's only a small chance you will get a decent return (like 10%). Since you are popping out all this new stuff --and THANK YOU very much for it -- Why can't the buy amount be in coins or at least the payout be the amount of the chance payout or at least more than the standard payout.
Also, why does it take so long to level up ?? That's a lot more diamonds to spend. AND I also am getting mine gem requirements in almost every new quest and for all the different kinds of gems which take over 3 hours to mature for least expensive and then you have to purchase a new gem.
I really do appreciate your quick response to this thread and hope you will continue to read thru all our responses. The mine is an awesome new project - just needs some tweaking hopefully. Also I did get the gem trees I bought but still waiting for the over 3 hours to mature to see what I got.

[WaaghMan]

We're planning to do the following changes. Not sure of the exact day, as tomorrow and monday are holidays here, but I'll try to squeeze it at some point during the weekend:

1- Decrease chance of minerals showing up in quests, and amount of them requested.
2- Increase a bit mineral level up speed.
3- Increase a bit chance of earning the big reward, including the resource (values will be changed a bit to keep the same overall income and price).
4- Slightly decrease amount of resources required to unlock new sections of the mine.

I think this should help making the mining experience a bit better.

[aKiss4Luck]

Originally posted by WaaghMan:

Just to make sure, you're clicking on all the 10 mining spots, right?

Because having 0 resources after clicking on the 10 spots means you've been VERY unlucky, and usually you'll get 3-5 resources.

I have clicked on all 10. LOL Yes, and would try clicking them all again if I thought it would help. lol

[aKiss4Luck]

Originally posted by gbmkennedy:

I'm sorry I also agree. Everything needs diamonds now and since I have been really trying to expand my new farm (which requires a lot of diamonds) I really don't want to spend MORE diamonds on gems that work like the old fish where there's only a small chance you will get a decent return (like 10%). Since you are popping out all this new stuff --and THANK YOU very much for it -- Why can't the buy amount be in coins or at least the payout be the amount of the chance payout or at least more than the standard payout.
Also, why does it take so long to level up ?? That's a lot more diamonds to spend. AND I also am getting mine gem requirements in almost every new quest and for all the different kinds of gems which take over 3 hours to mature for least expensive and then you have to purchase a new gem.
I really do appreciate your quick response to this thread and hope you will continue to read thru all our responses. The mine is an awesome new project - just needs some tweaking hopefully. Also I did get the gem trees I bought but still waiting for the over 3 hours to mature to see what I got.

Yes, yes, YES, I agree with everything you said. I've spent so MUCH time in the game these last few weeks trying to get all the land on my farm so I could start planning a finished product and building something beautiful and worthwhile and not just be grinding away. I'm 2 lots from completing that finally (while dealing with endless medical appointments and chemotherapy and illness) and now have something else gobbling up diamonds. With very little to show for all those diamonds at the end of the day. This game was my hide out from stress... until today when it just added to it. I simply do not have the ability or time to be in this game every bloody hour of the day to click on the mine in the hopes that something drops to pay back all those diamonds. (And honestly, there are no games I want to be in that much anyway.)

But I have seen the changes the DEVS have already made today. They are working at it! Heart felt thanks Devs.

At least now there is a 20% chance on each node to get something for your time and expense.
Better? Yeah!
Great? Well, not so much.

The gem requirements to level shops dropped dramatically. However, I'm still at 0 of the gems I need to upgrade some shops.
So better? Yeah!
Great? Well, not so much.

[aKiss4Luck]

Originally posted by WaaghMan:

Just to make sure, you're clicking on all the 10 mining spots, right?

Because having 0 resources after clicking on the 10 spots means you've been VERY unlucky, and usually you'll get 3-5 resources.

Update: I just logged back in to try, try again. (I really am a big fan of your work.) Clicked on 5 amethyst nodes and got... NOTHING. (I tried taking screenshots, but the timing didn't catch it) I realise this is "just bad luck" but darn it, it shouldn't even be allowed to be THAT bad.

I did however get 2 jade on the other 5 nodes. (I changed the gem type earlier today in the hopes something would happen.) Yay I guess.

[aKiss4Luck]

Originally posted by WaaghMan:

We're planning to do the following changes. Not sure of the exact day, as tomorrow and monday are holidays here, but I'll try to squeeze it at some point during the weekend:

1- Decrease chance of minerals showing up in quests, and amount of them requested.
2- Increase a bit mineral level up speed.
3- Increase a bit chance of earning the big reward, including the resource (values will be changed a bit to keep the same overall income and price).
4- Slightly decrease amount of resources required to unlock new sections of the mine.

I think this should help making the mining experience a bit better.

Now I'm running into having to wait for (in this last case) 7 hours and 24 minutes before I CAN delete another freaking quest with gems in it (25 more in this case). And I am a long way from having enough gems to level up the mine to get more nodes and tables.

The quests come up for all 5 gems/ore but we only have 2 at a time we can work to get so far. So then we have to spend More diamonds - thousands at a time - to change the type we are mining for to meet quests. And sometimes, like now, I have 3 quests wanting 3 different gems and the shops needing another type of gem to level up. WTF! Why am I getting quests I have no ability to do? Yes, someday I will be able to, but I have the quests NOW. And you limit the number of quests we can delete. At what point does the game become unplayable?

I have a few quest slots left not clogged up with gems so I can spend more medals in the hopes of getting a new quest to do that won't have gems in it. The waste there is growing in irritation too, buy one, delete, it, buy one, delete it (Until I'm not allowed to delete anymore).

With
- the insane number of gem quests still coming up,
- the still too few gems dropping, and we still get penalised with paying for the endless failures
- the fact that we are limited to the number of quests we can discard in a day
- the fact that we have to change the gems we're mining continually to even GET to the point we can move ahead

the bottleneck caused by this poorly thought out bit of "farming fun" is getting tighter and tighter. I'm sitting here wondering how much longer I have before the only thing left to do in the darn game is wait on gems for however many days (weeks?) it's going to take to move on a bit? Because that sounds fun.

Is there nothing about this mining experience (in my FARM game) that isn't irritating and feeling wrong?! For me, this is getting worse and worse.

I went from somewhat incredulous amusement at the mine, to sadness, to irritation, to a growing realisation that I may finally discover what it feels like to rage quit a game.

If a true and loyal fan feels like this, one wonders how newer people picking up the game will feel about it.

[sonobionda]

Originally posted by aKiss4Luck:

The quests come up for all 5 gems/ore but we only have 2 at a time we can work to get so far. So then we have to spend More diamonds - thousands at a time - to change the type we are mining for to meet quests. And sometimes, like now, I have 3 quests wanting 3 different gems and the shops needing another type of gem to level up. WTF! Why am I getting quests I have no ability to do? Yes, someday I will be able to, but I have the quests NOW. And you limit the number of quests we can delete. At what point does the game become unplayable?

I initially "criticized" that too, but we have to remember that we already have high-level farms in the EA phase, where new things can appear at any time and we are confronted with the requirements for high-level farming from one day to the next. If the mine had already been there when we reached level 80, it would certainly have felt different.

But what I still don't understand is that the minerals are obviously unlocked based on the farm level (that's why we have 5 straight away even though we can only grow 2).
So why not like all other items that are unlocked by growing/mining different types?

If that were the case, they would at least not appear in the quests, whether high level or not.

[sonobionda]

What I would also like to say:
This chance of success items is not really my thing either. I didn't like the fish in part 1 and I was very happy that things were different with these in part 2.
Couldn't you increase the time for the gems and then have 100% success? So that you have something reliable; something you can count on... wouldn't it be OK if you could only harvest once a day, but then have 5 gems!?

[Kerbyboo]

Originally posted by aKiss4Luck:

Originally posted by WaaghMan:

Just to make sure, you're clicking on all the 10 mining spots, right?

Because having 0 resources after clicking on the 10 spots means you've been VERY unlucky, and usually you'll get 3-5 resources.

Update: I just logged back in to try, try again. (I really am a big fan of your work.) Clicked on 5 amethyst nodes and got... NOTHING. (I tried taking screenshots, but the timing didn't catch it) I realise this is "just bad luck" but darn it, it shouldn't even be allowed to be THAT bad.

I've been having the same issues. I threw down a mine in my 2nd farm with Jade and had even worse luck. During 1 harvest of 10, I yielded ONE green gem. My iron mine on my main farm is averaging 2/10, but sometimes none.

Thank you devs for listening! <3

[aKiss4Luck]

Originally posted by sonobionda:

Originally posted by aKiss4Luck:

The quests come up for all 5 gems/ore but we only have 2 at a time we can work to get so far. So then we have to spend More diamonds - thousands at a time - to change the type we are mining for to meet quests. And sometimes, like now, I have 3 quests wanting 3 different gems and the shops needing another type of gem to level up. WTF! Why am I getting quests I have no ability to do? Yes, someday I will be able to, but I have the quests NOW. And you limit the number of quests we can delete. At what point does the game become unplayable?

I initially "criticized" that too, but we have to remember that we already have high-level farms in the EA phase, where new things can appear at any time and we are confronted with the requirements for high-level farming from one day to the next. If the mine had already been there when we reached level 80, it would certainly have felt different.

But what I still don't understand is that the minerals are obviously unlocked based on the farm level (that's why we have 5 straight away even though we can only grow 2).
So why not like all other items that are unlocked by growing/mining different types?

If that were the case, they would at least not appear in the quests, whether high level or not.

We have five and can choose to mine any of them, and change them to suit the next kind you need. But be prepared to lose even more diamonds in the process, it's not a cheap change over.

And because we CAN change them over, we get quests for all the types right from the start, even though we can only actually mine 2 at at time. With the "improved" drop rate of 18%-30% at a time, the reality is we often wait hours, click on all the nodes and walk away without a thing to show for it. As more and more quests come up, it's getting harder and harder to get new quests you can work on. The mines also charge you diamonds every time "we" fail to get a gem. If you've have to click several times, it ends up costing us to use them.

I am so sorry I installed the darn things. I've worked so hard to almost reach level 200 on my farm (I'm dealing with chemo and it's actually "working hard" to play games, lol) and now I'm thinking to dump it and start a new farm all over again and never touch that darn mine. Or just go play some other game. It's very discouraging.

[aKiss4Luck]

Originally posted by sonobionda:

What I would also like to say:
This chance of success items is not really my thing either. I didn't like the fish in part 1 and I was very happy that things were different with these in part 2.
Couldn't you increase the time for the gems and then have 100% success? So that you have something reliable; something you can count on... wouldn't it be OK if you could only harvest once a day, but then have 5 gems!? :lunar2020thinkingtiger:

YES!! Bless you. YES.

We are waiting up to an hour per stage in the sculptures and dont' mind that. Because we know we're going to GET something when it's done. This lottery of terrible chances is disheartening.