Riddle on the rails: why it doesn't make sense

[darksharcoux]

Hi all ! This is a great game. Though, the more I think about the missing train quest, the more I think it doesn't make sense at all. Let's see how the scene should have take place according to me, and then how it did according to the game, and let see what you think. (in advance, sorry if I make English mistakes)


SPOIL SPOIL SPOIL SPOIL SPOIL ! You've been warned

According to me :

The Mexicans had grudge over the Chilians and the mines. Knowing that the whole board of director of the Chilian company would be on the same train, they decided to plan their death to teach them! As they wanted the mines so much, they would be burried beneath!

What they needed to succeed was first to take some material to fix the railway near the mines. They carried it by boat from the south-east station to the north beach. There, they could use the rails to bring it to the mines.

Once that was set, in order to make sure that no one would ever find the Chilians, they needed to make people belive that the train vanished a few station later. Otherwise, it would be too easy to deduce that the train just took the switch to the mines. To do that, first, they needed a fake train to carry them from Chesterfield to Evesham. Then, they needed to send the messages that the train really passed by.

For Chesterfield, it was easy. They got the station manager drunk in order to get rid of him and be able to build the fake train. They could, then, send the message that the train really passed by. But they don't know Morse code, that's why we found the Morse code alphabet near the telegraph in the station. As they don't speak english very well and sending telegrams definitly isn't their job, they kinda messed that up and the final message is hard to read.

For Doncaster, they sent a guy to spy on the station manager. They discovered that he needed money, so they offered him a deal : "we give you money if you can just say that a train passed through the station between 01h00 and 01h30. Nothing really dangerous. Fair deal, right ?"

Finally, they could start their plan, explode the mines, and all was set. I suspect that Mr Robinson was also part of the plan. He got money from the insurance and also from all the exclusive contracts that he signed !

According to the game :

The Mexicans decided to kill the board of directors of the Chilian company by sinking the train into the lake.

So they got everyone to go down at Bridlington (why not Chesterfield then ?)

They got the station manager drunk to be able to build their fake train (but at that moment, they have also the real train in the station...)
The station manager, completely drunk, notice that a train is there and remembers that he is supposed to send a telegram. But, despite being manager for a certain amount of time, and sending the same message over and over again for every single train passing in his station day after day, he still needs a Morse code alphabet to send the telegram. Only this part is weird already, but it gets worst.

100 meters before Doncaster, the train takes left and rushes into the lake. Basically, a train is 100 meters long. So imagine the scene from the point of view of Duncaster's station manager : near 1 am, he starts hearing a huge "ploof" and sees in front of the station the train rushing into the water, making huge waves and all ! But no problem, he stays calm, and starts writing "yeah, the train passed here at 1am, and sun... herr... I mean left at 1h30 am"
Of course, I guess that being paid for telling that a train passed by, and covering up for killing the passengers of a whole train is totally the same and he never occured to him that, maybe, he could call the police, or at least tell you that he kinda heard weird noises during the night and saw huge waves!

And to make all this even more stupid, the Mexicans decided that killing the whole board of directors was not satisfying, and that they really had to destroy the mines to make it fair. Even if it is risky and totally useless...

In the end, tell me if you agree or if I totally misunderstood the case.

[originalkildi]

引用自 bigray1999：

And if I recall correctly, the mine had been abandoned long before they blew it up. That's why the explosion didn't raise any suspicions.

That would be more sound. Is there any piece of evidence in the case stating this?
Or at least, why did chileans abandon the mine? Why are there fresh tracks near the mine?
Why does someone blow up an abandoned mine?

[bigray1999]

引用自 originalkildi：

引用自 bigray1999：

And if I recall correctly, the mine had been abandoned long before they blew it up. That's why the explosion didn't raise any suspicions.

That would be more sound. Is there any piece of evidence in the case stating this?
Or at least, why did chileans abandon the mine? Why are there fresh tracks near the mine?
Why does someone blow up an abandoned mine?

I thought they blew up the mine and created tracks go up to it to create the appearances of an accident. A train goes down the wrong tracks, crashes into an old mine, the mine caves in and destroys the train.

The train really was diverted into the water.

I haven't played the game in about 2 years but I think I remember dialogue saying the mine hadn't been operational for years before the case so it would have been an ideal place to make a fake accident.

[originalkildi]

引用自 bigray1999：

引用自 originalkildi：

That would be more sound. Is there any piece of evidence in the case stating this?
Or at least, why did chileans abandon the mine? Why are there fresh tracks near the mine?
Why does someone blow up an abandoned mine?

I thought they blew up the mine and created tracks go up to it to create the appearances of an accident. A train goes down the wrong tracks, crashes into an old mine, the mine caves in and destroys the train.

The train really was diverted into the water.

I haven't played the game in about 2 years but I think I remember dialogue saying the mine hadn't been operational for years before the case so it would have been an ideal place to make a fake accident.

Well, it would be a very sensible thing to do. However, instead of doing this mine diversion you mention, the mexican company goes to do their "ghost train" thing.

[bigray1999]

引用自 originalkildi：

引用自 bigray1999：

I thought they blew up the mine and created tracks go up to it to create the appearances of an accident. A train goes down the wrong tracks, crashes into an old mine, the mine caves in and destroys the train.

The train really was diverted into the water.

I haven't played the game in about 2 years but I think I remember dialogue saying the mine hadn't been operational for years before the case so it would have been an ideal place to make a fake accident.

Well, it would be a very sensible thing to do. However, instead of doing this mine diversion you mention, the mexican company goes to do their "ghost train" thing.

They did do the mine diversion with dynamite but the train itself didn't end up there. They just blew it up, created the ghost train to pass by the stations, and diverted the train into the flooded quarry.

The flooded quarry was actually a brilliant hiding place for a train. Almost no one but Sherlock and Holmes would suspect it could end up there. By the time the water emptied most of the physical evidence from the accident would have destroyed by the water.

[bigray1999]

引用自 originalkildi：

What i like the most about this case, is how Holmes is chill with the the disappearance of the mine's security detail and workers.
The chillean company fought tooth and nail for the mine and after acquisition specifically instructed their employees to keep the mexican company off the property.
Now, is there a mass grave in the collapsed mine and Holmes is ok with it?
Or did the mexicans disperse everyone quietly?

HOW MANY "MEXICANS" WERE THERE?
In one night, they
1. Stole and foundered a train in a foreign country to kill a bunch of dudes, where several bullets would do. Hid the barges and the rails. Probably cleared their beach camp
2. Disassembled the tracks on Doncaster station, but only a few lol.
3. Partied with the drunken master at chesterfield, assembled a fake train, rode it to Evensham, rode it back to drunken master, disassembled it, returned the tools.
4. Hit the mine: collapsed it, burned some houses, cleared out the workers without leaving a blood trail, disassembled the tracks, BUT AGAIN ONLY A FEW LOL
[if mexicans hit the mine prior to this night, they would not have to steal the rails from the railway company, and would have alerted the chileans, so yeah, they hit the mine after killing the directorate]

so how many were there????
AND WHY IS THERE ONLY ONE "MEXICAN" LEFT?????

Clearly, the right solution is inaccessible in the final deductions and it rhymes nicely with Devil's Daughter, where the second case is likewise botched up by Holmes ["your murder will never be solved.....he failed.....so sad" - as one of the characters comments it later on].
I guess, second chapters are there to tell us even Holmes is fallible

I find the cases in Devil's Daughter to be much harder to figure out. I've played the Lawn Bowling case 3 times and although I know the correctly solution now, when I play it I still cannot figure it out logically.

[originalkildi]

引用自 bigray1999：

引用自 originalkildi：

Well, it would be a very sensible thing to do. However, instead of doing this mine diversion you mention, the mexican company goes to do their "ghost train" thing.

They did do the mine diversion with dynamite but the train itself didn't end up there. They just blew it up, created the ghost train to pass by the stations, and diverted the train into the flooded quarry.

The flooded quarry was actually a brilliant hiding place for a train. Almost no one but Sherlock and Holmes would suspect it could end up there. By the time the water emptied most of the physical evidence from the accident would have destroyed by the water.

Ok, but why do ghost train diversion, if you already did the mine diversion? Mine diversion is much better and does not involve bribing local officials, who might spill the beans?
But more importantly, why their second 'mine' diversion was so obviously connected to the love triangle of themselves-british seller-chilean buyer? Was not the whole point of offloading people to occult the fact, that the train robbery is carried out to take out the chileans?

[originalkildi]

引用自 bigray1999：

引用自 originalkildi：

What i like the most about this case, is how Holmes is chill with the the disappearance of the mine's security detail and workers.
The chillean company fought tooth and nail for the mine and after acquisition specifically instructed their employees to keep the mexican company off the property.
Now, is there a mass grave in the collapsed mine and Holmes is ok with it?
Or did the mexicans disperse everyone quietly?

HOW MANY "MEXICANS" WERE THERE?
In one night, they
1. Stole and foundered a train in a foreign country to kill a bunch of dudes, where several bullets would do. Hid the barges and the rails. Probably cleared their beach camp
2. Disassembled the tracks on Doncaster station, but only a few lol.
3. Partied with the drunken master at chesterfield, assembled a fake train, rode it to Evensham, rode it back to drunken master, disassembled it, returned the tools.
4. Hit the mine: collapsed it, burned some houses, cleared out the workers without leaving a blood trail, disassembled the tracks, BUT AGAIN ONLY A FEW LOL
[if mexicans hit the mine prior to this night, they would not have to steal the rails from the railway company, and would have alerted the chileans, so yeah, they hit the mine after killing the directorate]

so how many were there????
AND WHY IS THERE ONLY ONE "MEXICAN" LEFT?????

Clearly, the right solution is inaccessible in the final deductions and it rhymes nicely with Devil's Daughter, where the second case is likewise botched up by Holmes ["your murder will never be solved.....he failed.....so sad" - as one of the characters comments it later on].
I guess, second chapters are there to tell us even Holmes is fallible

I find the cases in Devil's Daughter to be much harder to figure out. I've played the Lawn Bowling case 3 times and although I know the correctly solution now, when I play it I still cannot figure it out logically.

As in CP, the second case of DD does not have a logical solution.
E.g. it is not explained, how a small person and one-handed terminally ill man broke of a gigantic statue and carried it over a high stone wall, without the club's manager noticing.
One of the characters even states later in the game, that Holmes did not solve the case correctly.
Therefore, while i did not play the new part as of yet, i expect that one of the cases, (perhaps, the second one) will also be without the right solution. After all, book Holmes explicitly said, that he did make mistakes during his carrier.

[bigray1999]

引用自 originalkildi：

引用自 bigray1999：

They did do the mine diversion with dynamite but the train itself didn't end up there. They just blew it up, created the ghost train to pass by the stations, and diverted the train into the flooded quarry.

The flooded quarry was actually a brilliant hiding place for a train. Almost no one but Sherlock and Holmes would suspect it could end up there. By the time the water emptied most of the physical evidence from the accident would have destroyed by the water.

Ok, but why do ghost train diversion, if you already did the mine diversion? Mine diversion is much better and does not involve bribing local officials, who might spill the beans?
But more importantly, why their second 'mine' diversion was so obviously connected to the love triangle of themselves-british seller-chilean buyer? Was not the whole point of offloading people to occult the fact, that the train robbery is carried out to take out the chileans?

The ghost train was designed to mislead witnesses in the train stations, whereas the mine explosion was designed to mislead the investigation and turn attention away from the true scene of the crime.

[bigray1999]

引用自 originalkildi：

引用自 bigray1999：

I find the cases in Devil's Daughter to be much harder to figure out. I've played the Lawn Bowling case 3 times and although I know the correctly solution now, when I play it I still cannot figure it out logically.

As in CP, the second case of DD does not have a logical solution.
E.g. it is not explained, how a small person and one-handed terminally ill man broke of a gigantic statue and carried it over a high stone wall, without the club's manager noticing.
One of the characters even states later in the game, that Holmes did not solve the case correctly.
Therefore, while i did not play the new part as of yet, i expect that one of the cases, (perhaps, the second one) will also be without the right solution. After all, book Holmes explicitly said, that he did make mistakes during his carrier.

Even more importantly, in DD, how did the culprit and his accomplice know it was Holmes and Watson who were coming to visit? It made absolutely no sense for them to start shooting at them. When they visited the man in the hospital they were in disguise. I didn't understand what the rationale was for the men to start shooting at visitors.

[originalkildi]

引用自 bigray1999：

引用自 originalkildi：

Ok, but why do ghost train diversion, if you already did the mine diversion? Mine diversion is much better and does not involve bribing local officials, who might spill the beans?
But more importantly, why their second 'mine' diversion was so obviously connected to the love triangle of themselves-british seller-chilean buyer? Was not the whole point of offloading people to occult the fact, that the train robbery is carried out to take out the chileans?

The ghost train was designed to mislead witnesses in the train stations, whereas the mine explosion was designed to mislead the investigation and turn attention away from the true scene of the crime.

Witnesses in the train stations - if such witnesses existed, they would corroborate drunken master's story, that the train did pass his station Chesterfield. As there is only one branch on the railroad after this station, the one leading to the lake near Doncaster, it would make obvious for the investigation, where the train is.
No, it is extreme luck for the criminals, that there were no witnesses on Chesterfield or Doncaster and if there were such witnesses, they would not believe ghost train story, when they have actually seen the train/lack thereof themselves with their own eyes.
Does not make sense.
The only witnesses, who ghost train can be directed at is Evesham witnesses. However, any Evesham witness to the ghost train would probably settle to the obvious explanation, that the train has not disappeared, but rather reversed course and went back to doncaster. It is spesifically Holmes, that NEEDS to know FOR CERTAIN, so he did not stop by making such a conclusion, but went on to find out, that there was no train at Evesham at all etc. etc. Less skillfull investigator in his place based on evesham witnesses reports would assume, that the train reversed course and went back to doncaster.

TLDR. Flood lake is a good hiding spot. But ghost train diversion (did take place) does not make sense. And hypothetical mine diversion (if it did in fact happen at all) is a straight out self goal.

[originalkildi]

引用自 bigray1999：

引用自 originalkildi：

As in CP, the second case of DD does not have a logical solution.
E.g. it is not explained, how a small person and one-handed terminally ill man broke of a gigantic statue and carried it over a high stone wall, without the club's manager noticing.
One of the characters even states later in the game, that Holmes did not solve the case correctly.
Therefore, while i did not play the new part as of yet, i expect that one of the cases, (perhaps, the second one) will also be without the right solution. After all, book Holmes explicitly said, that he did make mistakes during his carrier.

Even more importantly, in DD, how did the culprit and his accomplice know it was Holmes and Watson who were coming to visit? It made absolutely no sense for them to start shooting at them. When they visited the man in the hospital they were in disguise. I didn't understand what the rationale was for the men to start shooting at visitors.

Perhaps, they were afraid, that doctors would abet Holmes and provide the address.
However, it does not make sense, that Albeit started shouting at the right time, when Holmes was approaching the door. In fact, if aLBEIT kept silence, would not it increase the chances of his tribal friend to surprise shoot Holmes?
However, for me personally the most important inconsistency is statue disappearance. Holmes checks the statue at the bowling competition - its regular. Holmes leaves after the competition, manager stays. Manager does not hear any sounds untill the murder.
Therefore, its during the murder, that the statue has been replaced.
Therefore, the statue has been carried off the property during the murder.
How did one-armed near-death opium user Albeit and his small friend broke off the statue and carried it off the property, with manager on the balcony, without manager spotting this operation?
I 100% agree with Hamilton on this one. Holmes bungled it

[Archideus]

I just finished the train Riddle yesterday. I went with the mountain solution, because it was less absurd, IMO. The more I think about it, the more this whole premise is dumb. Why would You go with all the trouble of stealing and disposing of a whole train in a foreign country just to kill some people. The amount of money, manpower, planning it would have taken is absurd. So much could have gone wrong. Why not just shoot the Chileans or plant a bomb under their railroad car. Blowing up the whole train would have made more sense - I'll bet the first thing assumed would be that it wast to destroy the revolutionary power source prototype that would shake the foundation of the energy industry and make many people of that industry very unhappy. Or simply stealing just one railroad car and disposing of it. Nut not the whole train Also, what about the train conductor and train driver ? They were Mexicans too ? Or bribed Englishmen that had no problem with destroying a whole train with innocent people on board ? Or they didn't know what they were doing until the end and got killed along with the Chilleans ? Also - the Chilleans just sat there in their car and did nothing while the train was being highjacked, put on a barge and then started sinking. None of them broke a window and jumped out, tried to run ? Also also, who did all the dirty work - laying tracks, operating the barge, stealing tracks, building fake trains, removing evidence, blowing up the mine etc. Bribed local people ? A battalion of Mexicans posing as ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ no one noticed was operating in the area ? Also also also - why did the Mexican stay behind, for what purpose ? And most importantly - why didn't the Eagles fly the Ring to Mordor ? Maybe I wasn't suppose to think more about it then it was explained in the game and just accept it as is, but here I am ranting.

[originalkildi]

引用自 Archideus：

And most importantly - why didn't the Eagles fly the Ring to Mordor ? Maybe I wasn't suppose to think more about it then it was explained in the game and just accept it as is, but here I am ranting.

I am not a Tolkien expert, but I did not really ever had a problem with the eagle thing.
The whole premise of the story is that the ring corrupts everything/everyone, so it literally can only be entrusted to a hobbit, because worse case scenario he is going to use it to drink tea for a hundred years and then give it up as soon as you shout at him a little.
Another point of the story is that Sauron has complete military superiority, as well as all-seeing eye, which might miss hobbits, but definitely not eagles, who are high tier. Therefore, they would be nuked on approach.
I guess, I did not read silmarillion enough to understand the gravity of the eagle dilemma.
But detective fans and arguably most of all Sherlock fans are really picky about this stuff.
So i think your commentary is the most natural thing you can expect from such a sherlock-themed forum and also i agree

[darksharcoux]

@originalkildi I totally agree with you on all your topics. I remember about DD that I also had a lot of rational problems with the solutions as described by the game.

@Archideus I agree with you, but I think that if the train would have been sent to the mines, the symbol could make all that work worth it. They would have done it for honor and to send a strong message. As described in my original post, everything seems way more rational in this scenario, while the game's scenario really doesn't add up. Every step of the plan seems random, overcomplicated, and very risky for nothing. The Morse Code alphabet, building a fake train at the station where the train already is and where people can see you, having the station manager drunk enough to not notice the fake train, but still sober enough to send a telegram, sunking the train in front of the other station, the extra rails for nothing, the destroyed mines...

[Derpnip]

Lol i had the same thughts. I think thats me done with the game to be honest. Didn't play the cases in order but all 3 i have done so far have required so much guessing at the end or making assumptions we were given no evidence for that it is no longer enjoyable knowing i will just get the wrong answer again.