Water is a bit silly

[otherguy]

Just a small realism note. The official guideline for desert traveling is a minimum of 1 gallon (4 liters) of water per person per day.

So 7 rangers x 60 days = carrying 420 gallons of water. At approx 4 kg or 9 lbs per gallon that means about 3700 pounds of water in those canteens.

Now add a few upgrades and you can get 120 days...

So must be the much lighter dehydrated type water :)

[DankDankerson]

Originally posted by jtaylor808:

Originally posted by otherguy:

Sorry days was a logical conclusion maybe hours. Hours would be plausible I think if we assume the map to be a lot smaller. Fully equiped, rough terrain, tactical movement, assuming that these rangers are people who have been walking forever.

So maybe 2 miles per hour, or approx 3.5 km. Meaning 120 hours = range of 250 miles give or take a bit. We will assuming minimum rest so subtract about 8 hours a day so sub about 80 miles from that for a range of 170 miles.

Remember this is not walking like you do to the store, the terrain is rough at best, not bush though or that would be like .2 miles per hour. Trying to move tactically so taking advantage or terrain and trying not to make too much noise. Of course the 60 or 70 lbs of gear sure helps too.

Of course again this assumes that these are people are absolutely phenomenal athletes. An extended pace like that over many many days is a very hard thing to do.

Of course there is the other answer of course "Who cares it is a @#$!!!! game."

If the encounters represent the terrain then they are walking across a parking lot/ highway. Shouldn't be too difficult to traverse.

mostly dont give a ♥♥♥♥, but these guys are rangers, even ranger recruits, so they do this kinda crap on a daily basis, 2mph is an easy patrol speed to maintain all day long across moderate terain.

[otherguy]

Note I did include the "Who cares it is a !@#$!!! game option"

Food even in a desert you can scavange if you are really really good.

60 oz water = 1/2 day for 1 person so everything must be a few miles apart at best.

60 l is about 2 days for 7 people meaning maybe a 50 mile total distance.

As for terrain broken roads with sand on them get tiring very fast.

Of course this is all meaningless as anything other than an academic exercise in pedantry.

However it does illiustrate how hard things that we consider simple and everyday become in a survival situation.

I do think that the addition of some sort of animal or mechanical transport would have made a lot sense though since when, in history, does anyone walk unaided any distance.

[Ino]

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

Originally posted by Ino:

How about we assume it's 60 ounces? :P That's a reasonable amount to carry for each person in a canteen. Essentially it's 1.75 liter bottle of water. This also then makes some sense in how a Sunbrella could help you spread 60 out to "feel" like 80, the backpack could also help make your water last longer, as you can put so many of the things you carry around into it, carrying it on your back rather than on your legs or in your arms.

oz seems to be the intented unit imo :P

I was thinking more likely to be liters. This is more likely when you consider the 7 person party size and of oasis to refill regularly.
This would make the backpack one of those backpacks with a water bladder constructed into it, but seems more fitting for desert enviroment.

60 liters?! There's 7 people in the party yes, but how are you going to be carrying 60 liters around? Especially when it's referred to as water in a canteen.

Think about how much 60 liters is! Each liter of water weighs 1 kg, that's 60 kgs of water to be carrying around? Even if you split that by 7, each person carrying their share, that's everyone carrying around almost 9 kg of water per person! How are they transporting this amount of water? Is everyone carrying 9 liter/kg of water each? Do they have pack animals, because I must have missed them if they do?

60 oz makes much more sense, even if the distance they would be travelling is cut down, which I think people are overestimating the size of the map and the fact that there are like 20 oases in AZ, not to forget that many landmarks have water spouts or wells that can be utilized, so the 60 oz only needs to last the rangers as long as it takes to get from landmark to oasis or landmark to landmark, or oasis to oasis.

The distance between the Radio Tower and Ranger Citadel is half a day at most, and there's even an oasis in between them. Ag Center and Ranger Citadel / Radio Tower each direction is likely not more than about 8 hours away itself if you consider that people at Ag Center expected a *very quick* response from Ranger Citadel, making it sound like Ranger Citadel is just a few hours away, and yet it took Echo One about 8 hours to arrive after the distress call was made.

60 oz is perfectly reasonable considering this part of AZ is pretty small, and travel between destinations is a few hours.

Keep in mind, that's 60 oz per person. So in a 7 member party, where everyone has their own canteen, because why would people not have their own canteens, that's a total of about 12.6 liters, as 60 oz = almost 1.8 liters. It's also much more reasonable to expect people to be carrying around a little under 2 liters of water for personal use, and refilling up at the plentiful oases and landmarks. Carrying 2kg of water with you makes more sense than carrying 9kg of water with you. It's better to travel light and require less water than carry almost 20 lbs of water with you everywhere, in addition to a 10-20 lb weapon, possibly a secondary weapon of similar weight, and anywhere from 30-100 lbs of junk scrap.

Might I point out the fact that a 10 liter bottle is commonly what is used on top of water coolers? Suggesting 60 liters, means that you've got a group of 7 people essentially all carrying one of those over their shoulder, all day long, everywhere they go.

[Darth Cannabis]

Originally posted by Ino:

Originally posted by Darth Cannabis:

I was thinking more likely to be liters. This is more likely when you consider the 7 person party size and of oasis to refill regularly.
This would make the backpack one of those backpacks with a water bladder constructed into it, but seems more fitting for desert enviroment.

60 liters?! There's 7 people in the party yes, but how are you going to be carrying 60 liters around? Especially when it's referred to as water in a canteen.

Think about how much 60 liters is! Each liter of water weighs 1 kg, that's 60 kgs of water to be carrying around? Even if you split that by 7, each person carrying their share, that's everyone carrying around almost 9 kg of water per person! How are they transporting this amount of water? Is everyone carrying 9 liter/kg of water each? Do they have pack animals, because I must have missed them if they do?

60 oz makes much more sense, even if the distance they would be travelling is cut down, which I think people are overestimating the size of the map and the fact that there are like 20 oases in AZ, not to forget that many landmarks have water spouts or wells that can be utilized, so the 60 oz only needs to last the rangers as long as it takes to get from landmark to oasis or landmark to landmark, or oasis to oasis.

The distance between the Radio Tower and Ranger Citadel is half a day at most, and there's even an oasis in between them. Ag Center and Ranger Citadel / Radio Tower each direction is likely not more than about 8 hours away itself if you consider that people at Ag Center expected a *very quick* response from Ranger Citadel, making it sound like Ranger Citadel is just a few hours away, and yet it took Echo One about 8 hours to arrive after the distress call was made.

60 oz is perfectly reasonable considering this part of AZ is pretty small, and travel between destinations is a few hours.

Keep in mind, that's 60 oz per person. So in a 7 member party, where everyone has their own canteen, because why would people not have their own canteens, that's a total of about 12.6 liters, as 60 oz = almost 1.8 liters. It's also much more reasonable to expect people to be carrying around a little under 2 liters of water for personal use, and refilling up at the plentiful oases and landmarks. Carrying 2kg of water with you makes more sense than carrying 9kg of water with you. It's better to travel light and require less water than carry almost 20 lbs of water with you everywhere, in addition to a 10-20 lb weapon, possibly a secondary weapon of similar weight, and anywhere from 30-100 lbs of junk scrap.

Might I point out the fact that a 10 liter bottle is commonly what is used on top of water coolers? Suggesting 60 liters, means that you've got a group of 7 people essentially all carrying one of those over their shoulder, all day long, everywhere they go.

Actually the top of common water coolers is 5 gallons. A 2 liter is 2.1 quarts, there are 4 quarts in a gallon, so those are closer to 20 liters. You need to cut your porportion in half as to what you think a liter is.
I do agree it may still be a lot to carry, but ounces is way to small of unit, when you look at a backback adding 20 units. (its clearly does not equip to everyone, so clearly the 1 person carries 20 units for whole party)
Most likely its a unit of measure between ounce and liter. The only 2 standard units I can think of thou are cups and quarts, and I doubt those would be common used unless its makeshift canteens out of oil containers. If we stick with metric sytem, most logical would
probally be deciliters (1/10 of liter), but again uncommon.

Let's just to see, propose its quarts. 60 units would then translate out to 15 gallons, which seems appropriate to the dessert terrain. With a party of 7 that party could surive 2 days, with just the 1 gallon to spare, and the backpack would rougly supply 5 more gallons.

Its easy to use this to check cups as well. Same scenario would simply cut all numbers in half. The 7 member party would have 1 day of water, and the backpack would provide roughly 2 and 1/2 more gallons.

[otherguy]

Just a note I still have a 2 liter patrol canteen somewhere, packpackers in the desert carry hydration packs with multiple 3 liter bottles.

On a one day patrol in a very moderate climate I used to carry 3 liters or almost 100 oz for my own use only. In a desert that water requirement is higher.

So think 25 lb or so just for bare minimum water. Food is assuming scavanging another 6-8 lbs. 8 lbs of weapon, another 10-15 in ammo. Basic gear, things like map compass, binoculares flashlight, gas masks etc, a second set of clothing, warm weather gear as it drops below freezing at night in the desert, some sort of basic shelter, sleeping stuff etc.

Now even for rangers who have been walking forever and are in very good shape you are going to have some real problems.

Not hard to hit 75 lbs or better at that is for 3 days at most and honestly traveling fairly light.

Walk at anything other than a slow cautious pace and you increase the risk of turning an ankle with 75 lbs or better on your back, or stumbling into an ambush, or a scorpion or any of hundreds of simple things that become very serious with no ambulances, heli vacs or even vehicles to come rescue you.


Again all this is actually not relevant to the game but it points out a bit exactly what these rangers would face. Ironically in many ways the combat would be the lesser of the hardships they faced.

Oh ya and I forgot, radiation suits... Check out the problems that the US troops had with NBCW stuff during the gulf war. Bascially wearing a snowsuit in the desert.

Oh and a small note water cooler bottles are 20 liters, the baby ones are 5 and those wierd flat half bottles are 10.

[Darth Cannabis]

Check back up at the cups and quarts calculations, (edit you may have missed), as the cups in particular seem the most likely unit. The backpack that provides 20 units to party but equips to one person only, ends up holding 2 1/2 gallons with that unit. That seems excactly right for what seems to be the dessert enviroment and distance we seem to be agreeing on. Its particularly beautiful when you look at 60 units on a 7 person party, as it basically boils down to each person with 1 and 1/14 of a gallon or 1.07 gallon/person (or aproximate)

Its just that clearly oz. did not hold when looking at that backpack, as 1 20 oz bottle seemed completely inapproriate. It would last the party about 2 minutes tops. If we assume the unit thou is 8 oz cups, then virtually every calculation about enough water vs. carriable comes perfectly plauasable. Being 8 times that of the oz assumption, while being a more carriable ammount than liter or gallons.

[otherguy]

Might work, ther e is one other thing, assuming you know where each oasis is, you can cheat a little by stopping, drinking until you dam near burst, wait about an hour or so then once again fill up your stomach before you leave. That way you fully hydrate at each stop and turn your stomach into a very temporary 2 liter or so canteen.

[Ino]

Again you're overestimating the size of the AZ map in the game. It's not the entire AZ map, it's just a small pocket of the desert really.

Yes, you say that you had to carry 100oz, how much of it did you drink, and how many places did you have that you could stop at to refill during the day? Because it seems like Rangers have an oasis or landmark every 4-6 hours.

Keep in mind as well, that half the party is likely going to be non-Rangers, Angela is the only Ranger CNPC in the game, everyone else is civilian, and likely have basic canteens.

The backpack does not include a bottle of water in my ounce argument, but rather just like the Sunbrella, would make the trip easier, requiring you to drink less. It's not that either trinket ACTUALLY provides you with a new source of water, it's that they make the water you have last longer due to making the trip easier.

Also I'd like to hear how carrying 2.5 gallons of water in a bladder backpack can ALSO provide +20 max weight carry, because you're telling me not only does it hold 2.5 gallons of water, but it can also hold 20 lbs of random junk on top of that 2.5 gallons of water?

Also the fact that you'd go so far as to reduce it to cups as a unit, which is a silly unit, then tell me that it makes more sense is just plain silly. Your argument is essentially then: 60 oz per person isn't enough, it has to be 60 cups spread out throughout the party. ... This would mean each person is carrying 8.5 cups of water with them. 8.5 cups of water is 68 oz.

You're telling me that 68 oz per person makes more sense, meaning that the 60 cups would make more sense as a party unit, compared to "The 60 is just oz in EACH person's canteen."

EIGHT oz is what makes all the difference to you in believability if you're arguing 60 cups? Seriously.

[Ino]

Not to mention if the unit was based upon the party's water as a whole, wouldn't it go up from 60 when you recruit your 5th, 6th, and 7th members? It stays the same, at 60, which makes more sense then if 60 is just a measure of each individual's water supply, rather than the group as a whole's supply.

You'd be able to take more water with you, when you bring along a 5th, 6th, or 7th member of the group, why would you stick with the same amount you were carrying when there was only 4 of you?

[otherguy]

60 ounces each = just under 2 liters. Even assuming the hydration trick, that gives your party an opperating range of about 30 miles with no reserves whatsoever. So if a party member is seriously injured you had better pray it is close to an oasis. You could not leave them and come back and carrying them would slow you down and increase the load.

I am a little confused, you are telling me that you cannot put 55 lbs in a backpack?

Really, that is hilarious, at the local fair I gave the military demo people a bit of polite crap for cheating.

Just to make it seem worse they loaded up a packback with gear and what was probably a 60 lb sandbag. I estimated the wieght in at close to 100 lb.

I had trouble lifting it and my job occasionally requires me to life a lot more than 100 lbs.

Point is a military rucksack is designed to hold a lot more than 45 lbs. I believe the marines aim for a capability of 120 lbs.

Quick readings from gulf war veterans put weights at anywhere from 45 -90 lbs without ammo and weapons. And carrying usually as much as 5 gallons of water per person. From the little I read they considered 2 miles in the desert to be a pretty tough.

Get this in your head, the desert is nasty, working in the desert is very very difficult, this is why we don't do it when we have a choice.

Doing it for extended periods with no vehicles and or animals (I think the rangers should have camels) is basically impossible. People have done it in emergencies, but usually only to survive until rescued.

Lets not even get into moving tactically which means you have to use the terrain instead of going in straight lines, stop frequently to check out possible contacts, try to minimize sound and so on.....

Again not really relevant to the game other than to get a sense of just how impossible the task would be.

[Ino]

My point was being that he was saying it is a bladder backpack, which if you're going to have, then you cannot fit nearly as much ♥♥♥♥ in.

Also 30 miles is totally reasonable. How BIG do you think the map is? I'd say it's not much more than 35,000 square miles based upon the features that we can point out that actually relate to the AZ we know (notably Davis-Monthan AFB aka "Temple of Titan", Quartzsite, and Needles) and there are oases and wells everywhere. That 35,000 square miles is including all that bordering area that we cannot actually travel to, like Needles and Quartz in the west, south of the area where the Prison/Wreckers are, east of Damonta and Temple of Titan, and I'm possibly accounting for more north of Darwin than I should be.

Also, really, camels, in Arizona? How do you propose that happened? Yes, I'm aware of camels having in the past been in southwest AZ, but you're seriously suggesting that not only was the population enough to be significant, but that they survived, again in high enough numbers, through all the dangers of the wasteland? Also consider how coveted camels would be in this situation, people would be stealing camels all the time, and they'd be extremely expensive in the economy of southwest AZ at this point in time of the wasteland.

Afaik, the camels that were in the area, irl, have already died out, and we didn't even have a global nuclear war! So, yeah, I guess there *could* be camels, but that's pushing it.

[DankDankerson]

Originally posted by otherguy:

I do think that the addition of some sort of animal or mechanical transport would have made a lot sense though since when, in history, does anyone walk unaided any distance.

Change that first goat to a llama and get the added bonus of not having encumbered rangers ever! lol it'd make animal whisperer more of a priority for me

[Kissamies]

Interesting discussion despite the whole "it's only a game" thing. 2 things: The map that comes with the game (check your installation folder) seems to have Arizona borders superimposed to it. Could of course be the case of cartographer having no clue, or course. Also the amount of water you carry and I think the consumption rate doesn't change with your party size, so I think it would be better to assume it's per member.

[The Dude]

Originally posted by Mandrake42:

They are rangers, they supplement their water supply by drinking their own pee

Edit: In the wasteland, only Bear Grylls videos survived

And I was just about to praise a Dune ref....

[otherguy]

Camels would have been great who cares why, maybe someone salvaged a few from a zoo or something..

As for size one liter of water occupies exactly a 10 cm cube so approximately 27 liters or 7.5 us gallons in a cubic foot. So 3 or 4 gallons of water doesn't take up much space at all.