Whats wrong with Combat system

[VandoosBlood]

After 17 hours of gameplay, here is what i think about the combat system

-Friendly melee attack, whatever your skill, you will miss 60-70%+
-Ennemy melee attack, they will hit you 90%+
-Weapon jamming happen WAY too often, thats ridiculous
-Dont bother gettin cover, ennemy will hit you anyway, in fact, they rarely miss long range shot
-If ennemy is in cover, you will miss 80%+ long range shot

At first i though the combat system was ok, but tonight i had to rage quit because of the excessive weapon jamming and my melee attack always missing while the ennemy is raping my ass 90% with the same ♥♥♥♥.

It seem like the %hit system isnt working at all.

[Citronvand]

Do you use handguns a lot? They have a rather high chance of jamming it seems. Try to use sturdy weapon mags, they reduce the chance of jamming. My M16 have 0% chance of jamming with it.

[VandoosBlood]

I know

but seriously, the number generator in this game is off, its broken right now.

and in a game like this, its unacceptable

[shaki92]

Yeah, jamming happen too often, but both for you and enemies, so it doesn't really matter. Overall combat is too easy, I have 4x10 INT squad, with only one weapon skill per char and crappy combat attributes, only one companion (vulture), and so far, I had no problems. Even if you exploring a lot at early levels, and wander into some way too dangerous enemies, you can always just throw some completely-overpowered granades or other explosives, and win easily anyway.

[SeriousCat]

The jamming mechanic, whilst annoying, fits in with the post-apocalyptic (i.e. hobo simulator) theme of the game.

The annoying thing is how useless your own team members are at hitting things that are right in front of their face. Missing an enemy that is 5m away and isn't moving with a rifle is just beyond the pale. Also, even on lower difficulties (e.g. not even Ranger) the enemies are literal bullet sponges, whilst your own team members can't even take 2 hits.

Tactics, skills, guns, melee—none of it matters. This is just a I hit you, you hit me game. I loved Fallout 1, 2 and even Tactics—please don't make fun of me for that last one—and this game has some seriously borked combat mechanics.

Which is sad, because everything else feels like the Fallout universe, from the grimy post-apocalytic visuals to the dark, sardonic humour. Brian Fargo, you screwed up bad, but it's fixable.

[starkmaddness]

This game is far more tactical than Fallout 1 & 2. They were great games, but tactics was not their strong suit.

IF you are missing with a rifle, there are 2 lilely reasons. There is a minimum range penalty. There is also a penalty when an enemy is standing next to you.

[MilesMk1]

Don't get me wrong, I like the game so far (even if it feels a little too much like serious work at times... like right now, I could be playing it but I really should figure out how to assign my 10th level ability points for 5 characters and it'll take so much effort to figure out the optimal way to do it...) but the combat is NOT especially tactical or interesting most of the time.

There can be no meaningful tactics when all the good weapon skills are ranged but a lot of the enemies just bum-rush you, the max range of a sniper rifle is so short all but slowest enemies can cover it in one round or less, and there is no way to enter turn-based mode ahead of starting combat to have people use ambush.

Sure, there might be ways to fight the interface and game the system in order to exploit flaws in the AI, but that's not actually "tactics" - it makes about as much sense as learning how to pound nails proficiently with a tennis racket because someone decided it's not challenging enough if they actually gave you a freakin' hammer.

Basically, whenever you're fighting anyone non-human the combat kind of sucks - it's like Fallout 1&2 except more clicky work and you don't get to shoot people in the eyes and nuts. Which isn't the end of the world, I love the early Fallouts to death and their combat (2 in particular) was just awful...

Gah, need to stop talking about what annoys me in this game and focus on the positives, which there are plenty of. Yes. There are. Focus!

[SeriousCat]

Originally posted by starkmaddness:

This game is far more tactical than Fallout 1 & 2. They were great games, but tactics was not their strong suit.

IF you are missing with a rifle, there are 2 lilely reasons. There is a minimum range penalty. There is also a penalty when an enemy is standing next to you.

Sorry, I should've specified that neither of these modifiers are in play during those circumstances. I completely expect my characters to miss their assault rifle and sniper rifle shots when the enemy is threatening them (i.e. right next to them).

Originally posted by MilesMk1:

Sure, there might be ways to fight the interface and game the system in order to exploit flaws in the AI, but that's not actually "tactics" - it makes about as much sense as learning how to pound nails proficiently with a tennis racket because someone decided it's not challenging enough if they actually gave you a freakin' hammer.

Basically, whenever you're fighting anyone non-human the combat kind of sucks - it's like Fallout 1&2 except more clicky work and you don't get to shoot people in the eyes and nuts. Which isn't the end of the world, I love the early Fallouts to death and their combat (2 in particular) was just awful...

Surprisingly, this is a remarkably accurate analogue. The combat for the original Fallout games got a lot better as you progressed through the game, but I'm having trouble progressing past Ag Centre on normal difficulty in Wasteland 2.

Originally posted by MilesMk1:

Gah, need to stop talking about what annoys me in this game and focus on the positives, which there are plenty of. Yes. There are. Focus!

The atmosphere, visual style and writing are amazing. It's a very immersive game. A lot of games designers talk about immersion being about certain gameplay features surrounding player interaction, but I have a sneaky suspicion that they either have tunnel vision or don't actually play any games.

[Pvt_Booger]

Originally posted by MilesMk1:

...should figure out how to assign my 10th level ability points for 5 characters and it'll take so much effort to figure out the optimal way to do it...

This is what is wrong with this wave of pseudo-turn-based CRPGs that is flooding the market recently. They want to let older gamers relive the experience, but they are titles which are nothing like the originals.

Any successful action-rpg or CRPG will have no "optimal" way to build. Every build should be viable due to a balanced overall system, a system which encompasses everything from economy to combat. There is nothing like that in this wave of CRPG revival.

Titles like "Wastelands 2" , "Divinity OS" and probably Obsidian's new thing are just purely bad design overall.

[Sentient_Toaster]

Originally posted by Pvt_Booger:

Any successful action-rpg or CRPG will have no "optimal" way to build. Every build should be viable due to a balanced overall system, a system which encompasses everything from economy to combat. There is nothing like that in this wave of CRPG revival.

It was entirely possible to build terrible, useless characters in the original game, and there were *definitely* skills and stats that were FAR superior to others.

Energy Weapons / Assault Rifle / Doctor / Perception being top-tier skills, for instance, and
Sleight of Hand / Cryptology / Bureaucracy / Alarm Disarm / Combat Shooting being *far* less efficient choices. CHA was near useless, IQ / DEX / CON were incredibly valuable.

You pretty much wanted to end up with everybody using Energy Weapons w/ a Meson Cannon (and pick up the second in Cochise), an Ion Beamer, laser rifles or at worst carbines for the rest; at least two should have expert Brawling w/ Proton Axe. Power Armor was obligatory w/ Pseudochitin filling in gaps.

[PerfectLife]

I've already killed our giant friend from the trailer, and if you think grenade guys are unfair, some of the things you'll fight later on make those guys look like a joke. At least with grenade guys, once you realize they're always threat number one, you can focus fire them down no problem. Later on, there's situations where, if you can't kill everything in 3 turns chances are you're going to end up with a dead (as in dead and gone byebye RIP) character.

I'm using a 4x10int setup since they decided to make skill points more difficult to get and most of my characters have their skills in the 7-8 ranges. I do have three CNPC's: Scotchmo, Tacoyaki, and Iron Man. Scotch and Tony Stark are doing energy weapons and those help out a whole lot. In fact... I'd say that if you don't have two energy weapon guys in the second half you're going to have a far more difficult time.

[cryx]

am having the same proplem all my guns have less then 2% jamming to 0% cause of modes. In my last combat ever gun on my team jammed in the same turn. then nex turn unjammed and then 3 of 7 jammed agien. I also have one person with level 7 assult rifle with an M14 I think so she has a 90% base hit, when combat startes the best she can get is 50%-54 in optimal and 4% -9% every where else. my shotgun girl has the roach and shotgun level 5 and usally has 70% on average chance to hit and at this poin after 3 hours of play she has hit 10 times out of 57. I mean i might have super bad luck but this is crazy, in the entire time i have paly the eneym has had 12 jams on weapons my peole have had 112 jams. evne worse when desarming mines i have level 7 demelotions my lowest chance is 73% i have failed 86 times on less then 32 mines. I dont get it

[PerfectLife]

Rapid fire weapons actually have a far higher rate to jam than what the tool tip displays. Burst attacks add something like +10% to the chance.

[leave me alone]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[Nunn]

Ive had no trouble with the combat after i figured out how everything works.
Usualy i just have my guys line up at maximum range, sniper taking the shot to initiate combat then pick off anything that comes within range.
The guys that run at you can be a pain but if you focus fire then you can usualy take them out quickly.

[Icedfate]

Originally posted by VandoosBlood:

After 17 hours of gameplay, here is what i think about the combat system

-Friendly melee attack, whatever your skill, you will miss 60-70%+
-Ennemy melee attack, they will hit you 90%+
-Weapon jamming happen WAY too often, thats ridiculous
-Dont bother gettin cover, ennemy will hit you anyway, in fact, they rarely miss long range shot
-If ennemy is in cover, you will miss 80%+ long range shot

At first i though the combat system was ok, but tonight i had to rage quit because of the excessive weapon jamming and my melee attack always missing while the ennemy is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ my ♥♥♥ 90% with the same ♥♥♥♥.

It seem like the %hit system isnt working at all.

lol, I think that's just the way it is in every game with RNG combat.

I constantly rage when i play pokemon and miss 4 times in a row with a 90% accuracy attack while the opponent freezes me twice in a row with ice beam (10% chance)

and then I paralyze them which gives them 25% chance of being unable to move and i potion stall for 13 turns and they never get fully paralyzed once but then the next battle, they paralyze me and i fail to move 4 times in a row.

I can't imagine how so many pokemons win while using hi jump kick with fricking 70% accuracy and if you miss you lose half your health...

it got to the point where I never use a move with less than 100% accuracy because even 95% means you will miss half the time.

although, I suspect this is just psychological.

I noticed this in the original fallout 1 and 2 games as well. I ended up constantly pumping a single weapon skill to improve accuracy and then only using weapons at distances that guaranteed 95-100% accuracy. anything less and I was sure to miss at the worst possible time.