Zombie Threat

[John Jord]

Ideas/Reflections/Design/Brainstorming/Inspiration for Devs etc. etc.

Amount of Zombies:
- I travel across Texas, on foot, for hours. A place, if I'm not mistaken, millions of people live (-lived- in Dead State). 10-12 zombies per map (populated~ max~).

Now, I've only explored about 3-4 hours away from Splendid/the Shelter, in a circular radius. I don't have a horse or a car, but we're talking millions of dead guys. I don't think there needs to be millions, but maybe 20 zombies in Llano and in supermarkets or similar places. Or 30 even.

Hive/AI:
- It first dawned to me when I was exploring a map that... combat and movement on maps is pretty much a "puzzle". You sneak around, take out 1 zombie at a time, and then take out the last 2-3 zombies that you can't sneak past.

They are easy, to say the least.

Then, on a map with Coyotes (Alley, North of Splendid), there were "lots" of zombies behind a fence. I thought "I'll bait the Coyotes into the walk path of the zombies". It worked! And it was an amazing feel!

Problem: The Coyotes tore apart all of the zombies (they wasted their ammo on them, and took them all out, which was good for me in the end). But my plan was easily thwarted. Zombies are not very strong.

What I wanted to happen was: The zombies would tear through the Coyotes, by flooding them, then they would continue to be "hostile" and chase after me in turn-based mode (or patrol the map). This would give me a sense of "gotta scavenge before I am overrun", but this didn't happen.

Sound/Idea (Against the living):
- Target on Tile: 100% Sound
- 1 Tile Away: 95% Sound
- 2 Tiles Away: 90% Sound
etc. etc.

Guns making more sound. It should reach far out of the map, in my opinion, and draw in more zombies from out of the map (spawning on the edge of the map).

Sound/Idea (Against the dead):
- Target Zombie on Tile: Draws in the attention of all zombies within a radius 10 tiles
- Zombies drawn in within 10 tiles: Makes zombies within 5 tiles of them to turn towards the Player.

The philosophy, the zombies having some sort of "Hive Mind". Like I said previously, it is really easy to take out 1 zombie at a time, and engaging them isn't much of an issue. I should be terrified of engaging them, I feel, but I'm not (because they aren't very threatening).

Transport:
- As I said earlier, I don't know how these work as I haven't gotten that far into the game but...
- Horses should allow less random encounters, but would spawn more zombies in the area you are traveling too.
- Cars should have almost 0 random encounters (some few, were roads are blocked, and you'd have to leave the car behind, as a sort of "checkpoint", in a way). Most zombies would be spawned in the area you are traveling to.

Both of these transports should also draw more attention towards the Shelter (both from bandits and from zombies). I.E: Using a car would get the Player furthest away for scavenging (benefit), but would draw more attacks towards the Shelter (disadvantage).

Zombie Terror:
- 1 bite. You are screwed. There's no feedback on this, almost all of my characters have been bit by zombies (the biting animation, not the clawing one). Antibiotics are not being taken from my Report still, I have no idea whether if I am in a danger zone or not. If I am playing against my impending death.
- Zombies should be stronger, stronger in numbers, stronger in damage threshold, more terrifying. Getting bit should be a problem, not a Player question-mark. Narratively, I think Davis says "If you get bit you might be screwed", but in-game mechanically I haven't seen much of that whatsoever.

Lastly (off-topic, but squeezing it in here):
The Shelter should be the "Player" in my opinion, much like the XCOM HQ is the base. Meaning, if the main character would die, the Player should be able to continue to survive with another character as the leader. "Being the Leader" could be appointed by the Player. Either they could go with the Player made character, or go with Davis, or even Doug, or Bud, or whoever the Player feels would benefit the "Shelter" the most.

It could have different benefits depending on who you appoint as leader, and characters that are misguided, or disappointed with your choice (like Doug, or even Vic), they could attempt a coup for power.

Disclaimer: I really like the game :D (but the zombies are, like in many movies or zombie games, rather...... dull and non-threatening).

[Shrapnel]

zombies are the dead brought back to life with only the most basic of motor functions in tact.

[ZombieBisque]

Characters aren't infected automatically when they're bitten - it would make the game way too hard. You have to be at lower health before a bite will infect you, it's abstracted as your armor being weaker from the attacks. If a character gets infected, they'll have special dialogues for it.

The player will continue being the main, and only, PC controlled character. If you die, it's game over - there are no plans to allow the player to continue on as Doug or Vic or anyone else.

[John Jord]

Yes Shrapnel, but the terrifying part of them is their strength, infections and horde/hive mentality (in zombie culture/fiction). Their motorics might be basic, but often they are very strong individually, but the key element in their strength lies almost always in their "numbers". Where are the numbers in Dead State? How would one present the numbers best in Dead State?

There's 26'5 million people living in Texas today. Dead State isn't taking place in all of Texas, maybe 1/2 of it, that's still 13-ish million people. Where are they at? (I am not suggesting that the Developers should spawn that many zombies in total xD but currently maybe I have faced... 100 zombies?)

"They are so terrifying!" is the sense I get from the narrative in the game. Yet, mechanically, they are not (How could the military lose?? Etc. etc.)

Dead State has a great story, great system, great playstyle, I love it!

I just think the zombies could be way more threatening by having some added elements to them:
A) Strength, 1 Zombie is stronger, can take more punishment before going down.
B) More zombies (Numbers) and better reactivity to either sound or even smell.
C) Scarier bite/infection consequences.

Further ideas are:
- Car alarms, looting a car could set off an alarm, breaking into a house or lockpicking a door the same thing.
- Patrolling zombies (at the moment they are just standing still)
- Spawned zombies and de-spawned zombies (Zombies that walk to the edge of the map can de-spawn, and leave the map, and zombies would spawn out of map as well).
- World Map Dynamic Feedback. Having icons on the World Map that could travel at the same time as you travel (Coyotes, Zombie Hordes), and depending on your Survival Skill you'd be able to see this from further away.

[John Jord]

Originally posted by Caidoz:

Characters aren't infected automatically when they're bitten - it would make the game way too hard. You have to be at lower health before a bite will infect you, it's abstracted as your armor being weaker from the attacks. If a character gets infected, they'll have special dialogues for it.

The player will continue being the main, and only, PC controlled character. If you die, it's game over - there are no plans to allow the player to continue on as Doug or Vic or anyone else.

Would it make it too hard, or too challenging? Is a challenge a bad thing, and could there be a "No Tolerance" Mode? If the code is there for a character getting infected when they are low on health, then you should be able to manipulate that code to (psuedo-script xD) "Get [Infected] after 1x[Bite Animation] from [Target Zombie]". No?

[Shrapnel]

Actually they are very weak (cause they're dead) and they're pretty simple to beat and avoid, its their sheer numbers that's their greatest asset. This is the case of the 'classic' zombie.
Not sure if a turn based combat game is the best place for special L4D type zombies where fast thinking and reaction speed are needed more than a tactical position on them.
Also, do you really want to fight 30+ zombies in a turn based combat system?

[speaker2]

Originally posted by Shrapnel:

Also, do you really want to fight 30+ zombies in a turn based combat system?

It will took like 1 hour long to kill them soo no thank more undead....

[John Jord]

Okay, L4D has nothing to do with what I'm talking about so I'm wondering if you're intentionally nonchalant, or unintentionally so. If you are trying to dig out a CoD-fanboy, look elsewhere ;D

I love CRPG's! Never even played L4D, but everyone has talked about it as being one of the best zombie game/FPS game/survival-ish. Probably not going to pick it up though~ I imagine it is a bit passe?

And the most important question of them all: Why would I buy and play Dead State if I wanted L4D? *confused*

I like the more slower, patient and tactical games. RTWP games are extremely fun too! I think you are misunderstanding what my intention and ideas are aiming towards :D I love a challenge, and Dead State (currently, in its Early Access state that I fully recognize, accept, respect and promote) is not challenging (yet).

Combat feels currently like a simple puzzle game, it feels like a turn-based Bejeweled (no time pressure or threat of lingering in one spot or losing "points" or no running from danger, or no scavenging whilst a threat is right around the corner, moving in closer towards you, each turn <- None of that, which I find a bit disappointing).

It is, in my opinion, too easy! (Might be because Early Access, no Difficulty Options -or- Keybinding Options after all, might be an .ini file somewhere I need to look into).

I'm just throwing out ideas that I think would make the zombies much more threatening.

Again: I love the game, it's just not very hard/difficult. Fun story, fun characters, fun to move around in the world, fun to fix stuff up at the shelter, fun to explore, scavenge, sneak, utilize the mechanics... the "threat" just isn't very "fun"... it's just easy.

Context Quote: "Actually they are very weak (cause they're dead) and they're pretty simple to beat and avoid, its their sheer numbers that's their greatest asset."

Where are those numbers? And even when there are larger numbers (10-20 of them on a map), I can still pick them off one by one around the edges of their "horde" without having to deal with all of them at once. It takes a while, but it is the most tactically sound and safe tactic I've got going for me.

Eventually, there's only 2 or 3 left, blissfully unaware that all the zombies around them are gone. 9.9 out of 10 times in most zombie games I have played, if you get the attention from 1 zombie in a group, chances are high that either all of them or a couple of them will be heading towards you.

In Dead State they feel like stationary "Point" grabs with occasional loot.

Huh... they are like barrels in Diablo 2? (reflection) Yep, the zombies in Dead State feel like (most of the time) destructible objects in an ARPG. In my opinion.

[Shrapnel]

I didnt read all that, but from the 1st line you seemed to not understand what Im saying.
This is how you summarize:
You said zombies should be stronger.
Im saying how can 'classic' zombies be stronger when they are dead. More strength in zombies is video game stuff (Left 4 Dead, get it?). Doesnt make sense that something that just rose from the dead is somehow magically stronger than its former self. Done in 1 paragraph.

[John Jord]

Originally posted by Shrapnel:

Also, do you really want to fight 30+ zombies in a turn based combat system?

Yep. I'd have to adapt my tactics, sure. Now it's more or less going in a circle along the edge of the map and take out 1 zombie at a time from the back, then circulate again, next zombie, then next zombie, etc. etc. it is extremely easy.

1) Have a strong character with a baseball bat go up behind the zombie. Hit twice.
2) If it didn't die: Main character with Leadership Skill "Go!".
3) Zombie is most likely dead (If not, you have a backup character close by).
4) No other zombie is alerted, so you go "Out of combat".
Rinse->Repeat->Win

Killing 1 zombie is essentially 1 turn using this method.

If there were more zombies, who might even occassionally turn or occassionally move about or patrol (Unpredictability), that'd make me use other tactics (rather than taking them all out, I might use a firecracker to make them walk away from an entrance of a door, or bait them away, or patiently wait to see if they might give me an opening).

[NATOguns]

Dead State is NOT about killing zombies, its about survival. Do you have enough food? Medicine? Fuel? Parts? Morale? Etc etc etc.... on the spectrum of threats zombies are on the lowests side with humans on the highest side.

Also when you look at other zombie games its about killing them. The scenario (while entertaining) almost always fails to deliver why all of a sudden 99.9% of the world population turned into zombies. Because, lets face it, zombies are absolutly garbage as a threat. You get bitten by 1 zombie, your going to turn into a zombie to. But 2 things can happen now, you get killed by the zombie and he eats you. Nothing to reanimate. Or you bash the zombies skull in with the nearerst object. Your still going to die but the situation is still the same. 1 new zombie, and 1 dead zombie.

In Dead State the lore is that before the dead started to rise, the world was dealing with a new virus that was spreading, this is probally the zombie virus by my guess. Or atleast I think so. But it kinde explains why the world is in such a state.

Furthermore most of the population in the US (no word... yet.... on the outside world) was directed to refugee camps/ shelters.

On the final point, I know you would like to see new / more things added but it is unrealistic to expact a map the size of texas where you can go everywhere which is entirely populated by zombies, survivors, animals, join-able npcs and so on and on.

[John Jord]

I ain't expecting anything, NATOguns, I am reflecting ideas, and discussing zombie aspects in Dead State and in general too. The thing is, zombies are REALLY easy to do just that with (kill em all, cus they cumulatively have good loot that will help surviving!).

It is beneficial to survivability to kill zombies! Either morale should go down a ♥♥♥♥-ton by killing zombies/dead humans, or zombies should be more threatening.

I agree with the sentiment that Dead State is about surviving, and that it should be less about zombie killing (Which is why I am proposing a zombie buff!). But what am I trying to survive from really? Bandits, Coyotes? Society's downfall? Those aspects are really interesting (and "This War of Mine" is a most excellent game at doing just that). The point I am trying to make: The zombies could just as well be destructible barrels, cus they are so non-threatening that I don't feel like I am trying to survive against them whatsoever.

I propose the Devs make a game called...... Bandit State! Where all enemies are human (living) bandits! (The living enemies in Dead State are really tough, difficult and sometimes extremely challenging! Incline!). A spin-off, or an entirely new game (for the future! This is merely an inspirational cheering on! Cus, again, Dead State is awesome :D and I think that a post-apocalyptic game with living enemies in a non-zombie world using Dead State code/assets/human enemies, could be really cool and fun too).

Shrapnel, you're no fun. Makes me wonder if you read the OP :)

[TAMPAX GOD OF BLOOD]

I like to imagine that every individual zombie unit represents a small group of them.

[John Jord]

HoMM player? :D That's... actually... a pretty neat little concept, HemophiliVAC!

[Shrapnel]

Im loads of fun, there's fireworks and confetti dropping even as Im typing this over here.
I get that you want your outings to be danger filled and epic life or death moments.

I read your entire OP, and man was that a chore, you use stronger everywhere so I assumed you meant stonger in its literal meaning. You actually meant more of them and more danger when engaging them. That I agree on, if you build your char right, you can crush them.

This game is more about base and survivor management more than the combat, maybe thats just me.

[drake_hound]

Eh the humans are the challenge, coyote military police, predator gangs etc.

The zombies are just annoying in big bunch. once upon a time there was a disease.
And it drove people crazy save scumming. cause lack of antibiotics.
Any 2 hit caused a infection, it wouldn´t help you with the coyote anyway.
Cause they would still come towards you during there disease period.

if you need zombies to fight the humans. you are already not wanting to risk fighting the humans.
they are the big challenge here :P and imagine that humans who survived the zombies.
Become tougher then the zombies. he that is realistic.
since all the weak ones are dead or hiding :P