The shopkeeper is a little ridiculous

[Shadowraith]

Necro bumped 5 years later? Hmmmm....

Now I'm not just complaining that OMG THE SHOPKEEPER IS HARD TO KILL WHY CAN'T I JUST ROB HIM EASILY EVERY TIME but there are a number of factors that make him a bit unreasonable. Let's just cover what he does and then maybe come up with something to tone him down a little bit.

1. Obviously, if you make him mad he goes nuts on you with his shotgun and essentially stunlocks you by running into you, so he's VERY difficult to deal with.

2. Once you make him mad, every shopkeeper is going to♥♥♥♥♥♥your♥♥♥♥♥on sight.

3. When this happens, they camp the exit for the stage you're on so even if you escape 1 on the previous stage you still have to deal with them constantly unloading shotgun pellets in your♥♥♥♥♥onwards.

4. As far as I know, once you anger 1 shopkeeper all of them are mad at you through the entire run, even if you move on to another area.

5. If for ANY reason the shop is disturbed then the shopkeeper gets mad at you.
5a. This includes picking up the idol in the mines and having the boulder run into his shop. Now, I understand that this means you should just be wary of when to pick up the idol, but sometimes it gets a little ridiculous when I don't see the shop nearby and the boulder rolls through the entire level out of control and aggros the shopkeeper at the bottom.
5b. This also includes enemies disturbing the shop in some way while completely off the screen, I once spawned into 3-2 and some explosion happened to trigger near the shop and of course the shopkeeper got mad even though I didn't DO A THING, that is complete nonsense.
5c. I also once had an arrow trap right in front of the shop facing towards it, so unless I wanted to drop down and take 2 damage I would've had to aggro the shopkeeper, this is also rather stupid and traps should never spawn directly in front of the shop like that.

6. If you try to go for the guy guarding the 2 chests you just aggro all the shopkeepers anyways, and all you get is some money which is a little USELESS when I can't buy anything because every shopkeeper wants to♥♥♥♥♥♥my♥♥♥♥♥ so as a result I never go for it ever. What is the point of this little feature?

I might be missing something else too, but the point is with all of these factors combined the shopkeeper is a little ridiculous. In particular, point #5 and #6 really take something away from the enjoyment of the game, and personally I would address point #4 by making it so if you aggro a shopkeeper in the mines, they won't necessarily blow your head off in the jungle. There could still be consequences for♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥off the shopkeepers in a previous area, such as doubling the price of everything in later areas, but the point would be to make it a tiny bit more reasonable if you mess with them.

Points #1-3, while harsh, seem like acceptable consequences for making the shopkeeper mad, although it can really suck getting to the exit (especially if the level is dark) and getting molested in 2 seconds because the shopkeeper is waiting for you.

[Free Palestine]

1. It's by design choice that he is very difficult to deal with, as the rewards you can get from killing all the shopkeepers is huge. (Eg multiple bomb boxes, jetpack, shotgun etc.)

2. Still, design choice, it's very easy to kill one shopkeeper by himself and then have it reset the next floor, or couple of floors. There would be no incentive to NOT kill all the shopkeepers.

3. Okay, #1-3 are all basically the same thing. It's all design choice, it's again to make playing a "kill all shopkeepers" run a more balanced option.

4. 4 and 2 are basically the exact same.

5. This is one of the only legitimate points here. It's a very minor issue at best, but it can be frustrating if you're not adept to dealing with shopkeepers. You'll eventually learn to do everything in your power to protect shopkeepers from fire frog's, arrow traps etc.

6. The "vaults" are for when you're going for high scores, there's a tactic called "ghosting" where you lure the ghost over the gems and it turns them into diamonds worth 5k each. This also makes it a lot harder for you to actually get a good score as you'll have to kill shopkeepers for the entire run :P

[Shadowraith]

Originally posted by Captain PoonWAT:

1. It's by design choice that he is very difficult to deal with, as the rewards you can get from killing all the shopkeepers is huge. (Eg multiple bomb boxes, jetpack, shotgun etc.)

I realize this and was not suggesting that it should be easy to rob them, I even said as much.

2. Still, design choice, it's very easy to kill one shopkeeper by himself and then have it reset the next floor, or couple of floors. There would be no incentive to NOT kill all the shopkeepers.

You mean assuming you're able to kill all the shopkeepers and deal with them camping the exits. I did suggest other consequences for messing with shopkeepers on previous areas, such as doubling the price of items in later shops where you wouldn't get aggro instantly. Hell, maybe you could come across an NPC that will take you off the wanted list for a hefty fee and/or sacrificing some HP, I'm sure there's other ideas too.

The point is I think it should be a LITTLE more reasonable to deal with mad shopkeepers, especially considering point #5.

5. This is one of the only legitimate points here. It's a very minor issue at best, but it can be frustrating if you're not adept to dealing with shopkeepers. You'll eventually learn to do everything in your power to protect shopkeepers from fire frog's, arrow traps etc.

There isn't much I can do when I get explosions that trigger 500 feet away and then I get LOL MOLESTED because the shopkeeper blames me for something when I didn't even do anything on the stage yet. I also don't see why I should have to go to such great lengths to protect them, there should be a door or barrier or something to stop explosions and maybe even boulders from rampaging the shop and dealing with shotgun blasts annihilating my anus every floor.

6. The "vaults" are for when you're going for high scores, there's a tactic called "ghosting" where you lure the ghost over the gems and it turns them into diamonds worth 5k each. This also makes it a lot harder for you to actually get a good score as you'll have to kill shopkeepers for the entire run :P

I see, I would still suggest some other use for it that's more practical though, such as spawning some gold crates as well or something.

[GodDang]

Its actually really really easy to rob the shopkeeper. Its not random and it works everytime. All it cost is one heart.

What you want to do is set yourself up right next to the shopkeeper. You want to be close enough for your whip to hit him while you are facing away from him, but far enough so you wont get stuck under the block hes standing under. What you do now is whip and as soon as you whip you jump also.

The shopkeep will be aggro'd and will be running out. Unfortunately for him, you are a falling which in turn knocks him out and conveniently drops a shotgun for you to pick it up and shoot him with.

[Shylaar]

Point 5 is the big problem. I just made it to the black market, only to be suddenly killed by a shopkeeper while debating whether to buy a kiss or not because apparently somewhere else in the stage a monster must have wandered into one of the shops, which aggroed all the shopkeepers. There was no way for me to know about that or do anything about it. Absolutely ridiculous.

Maybe I was just lucky, but I never had something like that happen in the original game.

[Jakkauli]

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the shopkeeper calm down in the original? Like, if you didn't kill him in a few levels, he'd stop coming after you..

[GodDang]

Originally posted by Jackayl:

If I'm not mistaken, didn't the shopkeeper calm down in the original? Like, if you didn't kill him in a few levels, he'd stop coming after you..

Yes.

[Jackie Chandler]

IIRC the shopkeepers in Spelunky Classic only calmed down after a set amount of stages if you stole from them - not if you killed one.

[Birdd]

What I don't understand are your last point.

You call it a useless feature in the game, but then claim you are upset because you don't get to use the feature.

and ghosting is completely practical, and currently the only way to stand even close to a chance on the top of the leaderboards. (Barring it doesn't get swarmed with cheaters over the next few weeks.)

[Trance]

I don't have a Problem with the Shopkeepers staying mad at me after robbing/killing one.

What i don't like is the fact that the Shopkeeper gets mad at me when his Shop gets smashed by the giant Stone Boulder after you take the Golden Statue. Often i don't even know there is a Shopkeeper when i take it. It can ruin a nice run that way.

Sure, the game is hard and unforgiving, but this is just a bit too harsh.

[Shadowraith]

Originally posted by Birdd™:

What I don't understand are your last point.

You call it a useless feature in the game, but then claim you are upset because you don't get to use the feature.

and ghosting is completely practical, and currently the only way to stand even close to a chance on the top of the leaderboards. (Barring it doesn't get swarmed with cheaters over the next few weeks.)

I obviously was not aware of its use until reading this thread, and by practical I meant something that actually helps in-game rather than getting more superficial points since money doesn't have any use (unless I'm somehow wrong, again) when you piss off the shopkeepers, which is every time you go in the vault.

[Bensha]

Originally posted by Cerzel:

Maybe I was just lucky, but I never had something like that happen in the original game.

The reason it didn't happen in the original is that the original only "simulated" (probably not the best word to describe it) what was happening on your screen. Enemies or hazards stopped moving or taking any action once they went off-screen, so it was impossible for a boulder or an exploding frog to angry shop keepers when you didn't see it.

[Birdd]

Originally posted by Shadowraith:

Originally posted by Birdd™:

What I don't understand are your last point.

You call it a useless feature in the game, but then claim you are upset because you don't get to use the feature.

and ghosting is completely practical, and currently the only way to stand even close to a chance on the top of the leaderboards. (Barring it doesn't get swarmed with cheaters over the next few weeks.)

I obviously was not aware of its use until reading this thread, and by practical I meant something that actually helps in-game rather than getting more superficial points since money doesn't have any use (unless I'm somehow wrong, again) when you piss off the shopkeepers, which is every time you go in the vault.

The game is designed for leaderboards, not sure what you mean by something that actually helps. The vault was put there to boost your score...just like fruits in pac-man.

You don't NEED to touch them if you don't want to go for score, but for people who do want to go through that extra mile of effort to get the best score possible, people love having those generate.

Since the game completely resets everytime you die, I personally don't think the game needs any more goldsinks

[ARF]

The only thing I call bs on shopkeepers is their absurd jump ability. For the most part it's not too hard for me to trap an angry shopkeeper, but ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I've seen them jump 5 blocks high with ease.

[Shadowraith]

Originally posted by Birdd™:

Originally posted by Shadowraith:

I obviously was not aware of its use until reading this thread, and by practical I meant something that actually helps in-game rather than getting more superficial points since money doesn't have any use (unless I'm somehow wrong, again) when you piss off the shopkeepers, which is every time you go in the vault.

The game is designed for leaderboards, not sure what you mean by something that actually helps. The vault was put there to boost your score...just like fruits in pac-man.

You don't NEED to touch them if you don't want to go for score, but for people who do want to go through that extra mile of effort to get the best score possible, people love having those generate.

Since the game completely resets everytime you die, I personally don't think the game needs any more goldsinks

I realize what their use is now but I think some additional benefit to help you actually clear the game (i.e: gold crates, which I suggested after realizing the vault is only useful for high scores) would make them worthwhile for people that don't care a whole lot about leaderboards, especially when there are bound to be a ton of cheaters with such a huge precedent already set with games like Super Meat Boy and others.

I guess I exaggerated its importance a bit after thinking about it but it seems a little silly to put in a feature like that when its ONLY use is for leaderboard scoring, and quite honestly I don't see how leaderboards are very significant in a game with roguelike elements, where randomness can be a huge factor in your score and/or speed.

[SlyKrow]

Originally posted by Trance:

I don't have a Problem with the Shopkeepers staying mad at me after robbing/killing one.

What i don't like is the fact that the Shopkeeper gets mad at me when his Shop gets smashed by the giant Stone Boulder after you take the Golden Statue. Often i don't even know there is a Shopkeeper when i take it. It can ruin a nice run that way.

Sure, the game is hard and unforgiving, but this is just a bit too harsh.

You can bomb the idol place platform to stop the trap from triggering. It's good to do this when you know that there's a shop below you. I really hate the new boulder in this version though. The old one had the boulder going on the same level floor.

Edit: Ok you can't bomb the idol platform anymore.. They really need to change that