The problem with Lords of Shadow 2 from an unapologetic series fan.

[Slurms]

Unlike most fans who began their fandom with the original Castlevania or the PS1 classic Symphony of the Night, I started off with Castlevania: The Adventure for the Gameboy. Even though I could never make it past the second stage, I was hooked. The music, the aesthetic, and the difficulty all meshed well with my gaming tastes at the time. Granted, looking back it wasn't exactly the shining example of what the series had to offer. In the following years I would go on to play every Castlevania title I could get my hands on. From the under-appreciated N64 entries, to the criminally forgotten Circle of the Moon, back to the NES classics I had missed out on, and everything in between on my way to the beloved Lords of Shadow.

Ahh, Lords of Shadow. Lords of Shadow was perfect to me. It recalled the old adventure style of Castlevania (which had long succumbed to the likes of its Metroidvania successors) while retooling the lore to attract new fans to the franchise. It may have been an insult to some of the more rabid lore hounds out there, but I found it to be a breath of fresh air and welcome departure to the repetition that had begun to take hold. Gabriel Belmont was appropriately tragic. The scenery was gloriously realized. The soundtrack, while not catchy and pop-y like before was complimentary to the more "cinematic" angle the game was running with. The callbacks were present and served as mostly subtle bits of nostalgia for fans of the old style. I don't know about the rest of you, but from the first moment I heard this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H17IAXZMEm0 (along with the accompanying goofy montage of Gabriel's walking) I knew this game was special. I won't get into everything that happens in that game, because I would hope you all are caught up by now (this being the Lords of Shadow 2 board). However, I would like to get into how I could go from loving the first Lords of Shadow to only liking its sequel.

Lords of Shadow 2, what can I say. After working past the portion of the game from the demo, I was treated to a very well made storybook retelling of the events of Mirror of Fate. Followed by this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1JcRRrnyX8 . As soon as the music swells as Dracula climbs out of his coffin I had that same feeling of excitement I felt when hearing the "goofy montage" music from the first game. This was going to be special. That was a feeling I held fast to, until you are tasked with finding an antidote. Until then everything had been as I hoped it would be. A quick exposition dump to set the events up, a trip to the castle (looking better than it ever has before), a battle with Medusa (a re-imagined classic beastie). But that damned antidote began the process of unfastening the rose-tinted glasses. It was during that sequence that the game began to stray away from the fantastical and moved into extended urban crawls through sewers, alleyways, and crumbling offices. It became less about the castle, and more about heavily armored battle borgs and laser security systems. It threw out the mystery and sense of adventure that the previous game had brought to the table in favor of telegraphed encounters that were always preceded with an arbitrary stealth sequence (i.e. Carmilla, Agreus, etc.). But its biggest offense was its attempt to placate the Metroidvania fans through the inclusion of an "open world".

What made Lords of Shadow work as a Castlevania game was its classic approach to the formula, it brought back the sense of progress through a storied quest. If one felt like it, he/she could look back on the map and see what they had accomplished. They had slain the lord of the Lycans, the queen of the Vampires, and the aspect of Death. They had made their way up the Crow Witch's tower and had bested Old Baba Yagas music box. All of these things could be traced and looked back upon with accomplishment, because there was a definitive path that Gabriel had to take. The open world element removed that sense of adventure and wonder, and replaced it with repetitive slogs through city streets and a handful of castle maps. To me the journey doesn't feel complete because it doesn't feel like the "hero" has advanced in any capacity outside of his combat prowess. Sure, you run into the likes of Carmila, Agreus, the Toy Maker; but they feel more like obstacles than conquests. There seems to be no reason why it was decided to reinvent the reinvention (especially after the success of the first Lords of Shadow) aside from satiating the complaints of SOTN "purists." Although, I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that aside from story issues, stealth sections (that aren't as irksome as some suggest), and a general sense of MercurySteam wanting to be done with it, this game was full of promise. Promise that I felt was lost by trying to please the masses instead of focusing on finishing off this great saga while staying true to itself.

Alas, as it is Gabriels curse to be forever Dracula, it is my curse to forever love these games. So even though I have my problems with the end result, I still appreciate Lords of Shadow 2 for what it is. Are any of you in the camp that with a more linear structure akin to the first game, this one would have fared better?

TLDR - Open world does not a great Castlevania make.

[centuryon]

I am definitely one who wonders how this game would have turned out utilizing a more linearly cohesive structure either using chapters or acts.

It sounds like they knew they wanted to go from point A to point B, but had to design around a complex semi-interconnected world of two completely different styles of modern day and Castle.

I think a chapter separation or such would have helped with the pacing and allowed for more drastic changes in environments without coming off as weird.

[Renfield628]

Absolutely. They should have stuck to fixed camera, linear progression, and narrated loading screens.

Ursprungligen skrivet av Slurms:

go from loving the first Lords of Shadow to only liking its sequel

This is my exact same sentiment. I also think the combat is ham-fisted and not as fluid as the first. In the first LoS you could go from direct attack to wide and vice versa and it also allowed more combos and special moves in the procedure. If they would have used that same mechanic and moved some the high end specials over to the blood whip, they could have kept easy access to the ENTIRE move list with primary weapon switching. Meaning nonstop access to all moves within the heat of battle and no irksome d-pad pressing.

[centuryon]

Another thing they should have done was, if they insist on these Stealth scenes (even though they do not add anything to the game), and consider them as "puzzles", then they should have treated them as puzzles were treated in both LoS1 and MoF, where they are optional, and you can proceed through them and not collect the experience reward.

That would have at least aleviated the frustration that those who did not wish to do those segments experienced and allowed them to continue on. Making them mandatory makes it seem like they really were trying to extend the length of the game with filler rather than attempting to be more creative with the modern day segments or expand the Castle parts.

See, I have no idea how MS could fail at making such a modern day Satanic lab so utterly generic. I mean, hell, Frankenstein's clock tower and the Toy Maker's workshop in LoS1 and MoF had some elements of "high tech" to them. I was hoping for a lab showing twisted and sick experiments on people, since this game is dark after all. It sure would have beaten claustrophobic corridors and rat snooping.

[Renfield628]

Healing is another big factor for me. Who actually pays attention to their health bar in this one aside from boss battles? Los1 you were happy to see the glowing green light of a healing font. In LoS2 you run right past the dishearten statues because the game is: number 1 much easier, you will usually have 3 or more tears of saints in your inventory (upwards to 5 even), and you collect health on finishing moves from ALL monsters. It really makes healing in LoS2 way too overpowered and cheap imo. It's nothing like the first game.

[JustABaziKDude]

Sooo... I just finished it like 2 hours ago, hardest difficulty available, and... I'm a little bit salty...
Just so you know, I'm expecting you to know the game ending if you're reading this here. So there will be spoil. Be warned!

The game felt realy ok, that's all. It didn't made me travel high like the first one.

I totally agree with the statement: why try this pseudo open-world thingy??!!!

LoS1 was an adventure, a quest, a great story. Ok, it was linear as *xxxx*, but that worked.
I remember rediscovering the castlevania franchise and being like: "Dude, I'm playin' a movie here. Like, it's a game. And! It's a movie! It's.SO.COOLLL!!!!!"
Needless to say: the story of Gabriel realy hooked me up.
And I came for that!

So, I wanted to know the end of Gabriel's dramatic fate
Hero of Light, chosen of God, defeater of the lords of shadow, mortal ennemy of ♥♥♥♥♥, vampire by fate, killer of the Forgoten One wich he stole the power, fallen of the light, Prince of darkness...
Pretty badass dude, right?

A little bit of my thoughs during the game:

First sequence:
"AAAWWWWWW!!! MAN!!! Such epicness!! This is gonna be AWESOOOME"!!!

Second sequence:
Hooo!!!! Story wise he lost his power!!!!
"Ok... So we're gonna get'em back, and we're gonna be badass again, and that's gonna be EPIC, and we're gonna kick ♥♥♥♥♥ and his acolytes and Zobek and everyones *xxx*!!!?? This is gonna be cool man!"

First stealth sequence:
"Yeah, we lost our powers, but I assure you Golgoth guard. You got me now, but at the end of the journey, I promise you: I'm gonna beat you up senseless!"

Do you see where I want to go here?

Yeah, in LoS2, even fully stuffed: the big badass is not Dracula, not ♥♥♥♥♥, not Alucard, not Zobek... It's THE GOLGOTH GUARD and his big-*xxx* hand cannon!!!
I understand the purpose, I'm not dumb. But, there the game failed my gamers expectations.

And sadly not just there, as stated, the "kindda-open-world" was a bad idea, nothing more to say here. But I wanted to list those other things that bugs me:

-The story!
I think the story itself is allright from start to the point where you meet Victor. After that... I don't know. Redemption is the catalyst of the game again but they didn't go all in on it. Wich for me doesn't really makes sense and takes me to my second point:

-The End!
Realy!
...
Realy!!!????
"Son we saved the world (again) let's go home, watch the sunrise and I'll make you some pancakes"
Huuuu... (yeah, I'm goin' heavy on it)
Two things about the end: for once, please give me a freakin' real ending, not one of those open ending sayin': "yeah, we're gonna sell more of that, so we can't kill the gold egg chicken you know"

-The End! -The Return!-
Leviathan ===> it's a joke, realy, it's made to piss off gamers. Realy!
♥♥♥♥♥ ===> possessing Alucard is okay, it's the evil way and the fight wasn't to easy. It's an ok fight.
BUT ===> NO FINAL CONFRONTATION?!!!!
♥♥♥♥♥ is just another reincarnation of Bobba Fett?!!
"GIVE ME BACK MY MONEY!"

-Bestiary
15 february 2014, mercurysteam highquarter:
"Guyz, guyz!!! We forgot to implement Lycan into LoS2!!!"
"Yeah, you know what David, we still have 10 days left to make the end, so I think the Lycan will be for the DLC"

-Bestiary 2
No Titan? (ok... one)
"Come on David!!! Stop bein a jerk, we said DLC!! With Alucard and all, that's gonna be so $$$$"

I'll stop here, it's pretty late.
In conclusion: I'm a bit salty. Still a good game, gameplay was nice, graffics are really good, difficulty is... Well, in its time I would say. Story is "Meh" wich is the worst of all the things for me.
And: Golgoth guards!

Still enjoyed it, just did'nt loved it.
And that's a loss :c/

[Renfield628]

^ I skipped the paragraphs you wrote about the ending since I haven't played past the victor plot. But it got me thinking about the storyline. The main reason Dracula even decided to help Zobek was so that he would kill him with the combat cross and end his immortality right. Why then when Dracula met Victor did he not just let him kill him? I mean he was using the exact same combat cross model that Zobek showed him in the beginning which turned out to be a hologram. And also why did Victor burn up after he died leaving no trace of him and his combat cross. He wasn't a moster, he was a Belmont. wth

[centuryon]

Gabriel's Combat Cross is special. None of the others are like it, it is why it is dubbed "The Vampire Killer", bathed in the tears of a saint or something like that.

That's what Dave Cox said anyway.

My theory on Victor burning up is some kind of (hopefully) out in case future games want to use him and just have him "saved" from death at that point. It is contrived, but honestly, that'd be a step up from his death. Alucard seemed to know exactly what he was doing after all, funny how he was the one who held Gabriel back when he looked as though he wanted to save him.

[Slurms]

Thank you everyone for your replies, and I'm glad we're mostly in agreement here.

Centuryon

Apparently the art director from the first Lords of Shadow had already quit before this one; so that explains the moments where amazing art design could've won you over (like your example of the labs in modern time compared to Frankenstein's). Yes. Chapter separation was the key to making this game as good as the first.

Renfield (nice)

The combat cross Victor carried wasn't the same one recovered from the ruins of Castlevania. That was a unique combat cross made by Gandolfi called the "Vampire Killer" that just so happens to be the only thing that can kill Dracula. Also, playing on the highest available difficulty I thought I'd have some challenge like the first game. I breezed through it just as you did apparently, it was much easier and it was definitely due to the healing factor and I thnk a more generous parry timer. Not sure if I agree that the combat was less fluid, but I would say that I felt less feedback upon impact (like the hits didn't feel as hard).

Corky

**SPOILERS AHEAD**
Yeah, that ending. Don't know how they could've lived up to the first games ending. I do know they should'nt have tried through a repeat of the Dracolich and a two-pattern bossfight. It's unfortunate that the one thing everyone falls back on is, "I killed ♥♥♥♥♥ with a dinky cross to his kidney, but can't beat a guard with a grenade launcher," but it's true and it makes no sense. Don't get me started on the beastiary either. Lords of Shadow 1 had you meeting a new enemy every other level it seems (with a nice introduction sequence to showcase them). whereas Lords of Shadow 2 just throws the same tired "♥♥♥♥♥ infected" grunts at you. Granted, the game has some brilliant boss designs at times, but it falls short when you're constantly fighting Devil May Cry fodder without a Lycan, Goblin, Ogre, or anything else in sight (I understand they wouldn't fit in modern day, but they could've been used in castle sequences).

[SkullScience]

I totally disagree with the OP. In fact, if the game was more like a free-flowing metroid-vania I suspect it would have received a much higher critical reception. And on the converse the same applies if it was similar to the original LoS and just a straight forward hack n' slash. No, what really destroys the game are the wedged in stealth sections. These belong in neither genre. They are obviously one of the dev's vanity projects as it makes zero sense to have them. You can still have a modern day yet gothic setting. Vampire the Masquerade did it very well. It is just that LoS 2 did not have much imagination in those areas. The game can hardly be called 'open world'. It is far too short. It employs a hub-system, and that is fine and actually done quite well. Very similar to Soul Reaver 2. The game just feels disjointed and, as a result, lacking in atmosphere due to poor design choices. To be one minute roaming the hub, to the next being forced to play a stealth level is simply amateurish. The game would have been so much better if those 'stealth' levels were simply removed! My point is, with the technology available, you want and really should have a fully open world Castlevania. The lore, the history, the art direction and the atmosphere deserve it. To be able to roam a world like that would be amazing for any true Castlevania fan. I have felt like this since I first played the Haunted Castle coin-op years ago. I have been a Castlevania fan ever since but always wanted to be able to explore and interact with the dark and gothic world. Mercury Steam tried and failed. At least they tried. A more accomplished dev will hopefully succeed. Making the game linear would make it date very badly and simply put it into a melting pot of other linear titles. I fundamentally disagree with your point about story and open-world. A game that pulled this off majestically was Dark Souls. The character, the 'Chosen Undead' had a distinct plot path, ability to see your achievments. It even directly impacted on the 'open world' and events would change due to your conquests. It was the epitome of the "sense of adventure and wonder"! I do believe LoS2 tried to appeal to the masses, but it was GoW fans Mercury Steam went for, not SotN.

[JustABaziKDude]

Hi again!

Thanks for the feedback OP, now I've time to finish what I have to say:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Slurms:

Don't get me started on the beastiary either. Lords of Shadow 1 had you meeting a new enemy every other level it seems (with a nice introduction sequence to showcase them). whereas Lords of Shadow 2 just throws the same tired "♥♥♥♥♥ infected" grunts at you.

Yeah, about that:
Hell army is deferling into Earth...
It's kind of a joke to me. Now that I think of it, I never felt like I was fighting against an army. If I'm not mistaken, it's suppose to be a beat them up right? Well, the feeling of an demon army coming to take over the Earth is totally absent for me. Like how many ennemys do you fight at the same time at most? 5... Maybe 6?
Even worst: they spread a virus transforming human into demonic... things. Alright... So the city of castlevania must have been really underpopulated... Just sayin'
Also: seems they don't have a very good endoctrinment minister in Hell -_-"
♥♥♥♥♥ is like:
"It's time for us to conquer the Earth and take what's our due!!!"
Demons are like:
"Meeehhh... Dude, realy, it's sunday, I got my kids to take to the movie, my wife is makin' me spaghetis for dinner, She'll be pretty pissed if I leave her like that... I'll go tomorrow. Don't take it to bad"

Ursprungligen skrivet av SkullScience:

My point is, with the technology available, you want and really should have a fully open world Castlevania. The lore, the history, the art direction and the atmosphere deserve it. To be able to roam a world like that would be amazing for any true Castlevania fan. I have felt like this since I first played the Haunted Castle coin-op years ago. I have been a Castlevania fan ever since but always wanted to be able to explore and interact with the dark and gothic world. Mercury Steam tried and failed. At least they tried. A more accomplished dev will hopefully succeed. Making the game linear would make it date very badly and simply put it into a melting pot of other linear titles. I fundamentally disagree with your point about story and open-world. A game that pulled this off majestically was Dark Souls. The character, the 'Chosen Undead' had a distinct plot path, ability to see your achievments. It even directly impacted on the 'open world' and events would change due to your conquests. It was the epitome of the "sense of adventure and wonder"! I do believe LoS2 tried to appeal to the masses, but it was GoW fans Mercury Steam went for, not SotN.

Didn't though of Darksouls. It's a good idea, I'm totally ok with the fact that if they went FULL open world like in DS it would have felt great. Yes!
But they didn't :c/
They had the choice, they wanted to do something new (good!) but failed to make it feel right.
Really, at the end of the game, I wasn't even able to imagine a map of the game. I felt really lost everytimes I wanted to go somewhere that wasn't indicated by a point on the map...

That being sayd, I got a few more points:

-The Castle!
It's beautifull, really. Art design in here is fabulous.
BUT!
Is it real? Is it a dream? How comes we can take the second acolyte in? It's a parralel dimension? Is Dracula traveling trough time?!!!
Is Young Trevor Alucard who takes this form to help is father? (he "touch his shoulder" remember?)
If so, how comes he is the Lieutenant of Zobek? Wouldn't Zobek be able to read his mind and discover the truth?
AND!
How comes he can even do that?!!!!
I don't even wanna know, I don't care, It doesn't makes sence AT ALL!

-The so called "open-world"
Yes, I've got a thing to say about that. Not just that it's an idea that was badly used. About the freakin' double door entrance maskin the loadin times. I play on PC and the game is on my SSD. So I've got really fast loadin times. So my computer was able to load faster than the animation to open the doors! Makin' them a real pain in the *you know where I'm goin'*
Plus: It's just really, really, REALLY don't even felt "open"
*disapointment*

-The feeling of power!
I already spoke about that (DAMN YOU GOLGOTH GUARDS!!!!)
But I've got to explain myself better:
At the end of LoS1, you've slain some pretty badass dudes. Like: an ancient GOD, a fallen Archangel and some semigod Dude wich nobody even remember his name.
You're a badass!
So, you're suppose to be, at least that powerfull, at most even more in LoS2 right?
Well you're wrong!
Like: Acolyte #2 is too powerfull for you to fight in the real world...
Ok...
Sooo, Dracula full stuff should feel at least that powerfull right?
Well, not at all. You just have, like, the demonic wings and the mirror of fate to find after that (tell me if I'm wrong).
So...
Acolyte #2 is next to the Golgoth Guards?
Right?
Right??!!!!
*deep disapointment*

And finally: I'll won't talk about the missing real catharsis of beatin' sencelessly ♥♥♥♥♥. Would have been cool finally feeling uberpowered. Havind the King of Hell within our grasp.
But no... They didn't gave us that.
*DEEP, DEEEEEEP disapointment*

[Tekka]

dantes inferno ♥♥♥♥♥ battle was a ♥♥♥♥ load better then this 1 but hey still love the game

[Gackt the Immortal]

Open world for the sake of open world does not add anything, but I do not feel that it necessarily takes anything away from a game either.

I don't think the "more open world" featured here was detrimental, so much as the deminishing art direction of the modern sections and the advent of trial & error, poorly paced stealth puzzles. The story was also much sillier, from the way cutscenes were directed and paced to how awful the writing could be (not that the first game was too much better in the writing aspect). I preferred the fantastical Guillermo del Toro wonderland of the first game, as well as the variety of the puzzles. I ate those puzzles up. It really brought home that you were playing an adventure game rather than an actionactionactionaction game.

Overall, I feel LoS2 is better due to tighter control and much the improved combat and platforming. It's really a "no contest" in those departments. The first LoS could be a nightmare to platform with, and the combat mechanics, whilst functional, were very shoddy.

I don't feel that LoS really retained much of the old series except for the "march through monsterland" aspect, and perhaps some level tropes. I do think it's a neat expansion of the franchise. I like how it neatly tidies all of the classic characters into a more concise storyline.

[Rohsiph]

The 'transitions' back and forth between the castle and the city felt like a woeful cop-out. Leading up to release, I was very excited to see how they were going to weave the remains of the castle into the modern city . . . and sadly it turns out they really didn't. Here are there it seems they leave hints that pieces of the city are literally built upon remnants of the castle, but walking into complete darkness to magically appear in a distinct area of the castle, wholly disconnected from where you left the city, was a slap in the face.

The world could have been an incredible achievement. Personally, I wanted more homage to the previous games in the series, like Mirror of Fate, but even without, even if they carved a completely original design for the castle quarters, it could have been incredible had they only persevered in connecting everything into a seamless world.

I really wanted to love this game. After the first reviews, I still held out hope it'd be an enjoyable experience for fans if nothing else. I just finished it and I can't say I feel completely disappointed with my purchase--there was enough to enjoy in the end--but it's a crying shame how much potential was there.

[centuryon]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Slurms:

Centuryon

Apparently the art director from the first Lords of Shadow had already quit before this one; so that explains the moments where amazing art design could've won you over (like your example of the labs in modern time compared to Frankenstein's). Yes. Chapter separation was the key to making this game as good as the first.

From what I discovered by comparing credits. It seems that there were two Art Directors who worked on Lords of Shadow 1. Alcazar and Vaello, and the latter is the one who left just a year after LoS1 was finished (so probably not a lot of time done on LoS2, he was only given a Concept Artist credit for it). Mirror of Fate amazingly enough had a completely different Game and Art Director. Alvarez had little or nothing to do with it according to the credits (other than being the studio head).

Ursprungligen skrivet av Rohsiph:

The 'transitions' back and forth between the castle and the city felt like a woeful cop-out. Leading up to release, I was very excited to see how they were going to weave the remains of the castle into the modern city . . . and sadly it turns out they really didn't. Here are there it seems they leave hints that pieces of the city are literally built upon remnants of the castle, but walking into complete darkness to magically appear in a distinct area of the castle, wholly disconnected from where you left the city, was a slap in the face.

Fully Agreed. This is what I had thought they were going to do, have the City built around the Castle and the two intricately connected with thought out level design. But for some reason or another they just weren't able to pull it off and instead made the Castle part of some dimensional pocket completely separate from the City, where the connections between the two mean little to nothing (the Wolf Medalion locations don't even correspond to set areas, if I remember correctly). A very underwhelming realization of what could have been something better.

[Steven]

I completely agree. I hate how everything has to be open world. I loved the level based system in the first game. You could see yourself getting closer to the end, the different locations were amazing and you could 110% each level and say it was complete. I didn't like this open world system and finished at about 11 hours. I don't even know if I have the motivation to go back and do everything else I missed. This means that the game has failed to live up to the quality of the first in my opinion.