Thoughts on Thief 4, stealth genre and lowered standards

[Vik]

A bit of warning, this is a huge wall of text and I apologize for that. But I feel like this is the only way to properly explain my view on Thief 4, the once great steath genre and why I think we lowered our standards. So if you're interested in reading this, i dunno, I guess you can call it rant, here it is.

There's been a lot of discussion over the year on whether Thief 4 was good, bad and why some liked it or hated it and I wanted to throw in my 2 cents for anybody that's interested. It's long, but here goes. It's worth mentioning that I completed this game twice (second playthrough was on a custom master difficulty) and I am a big fan of the original Thief trilogy. And since this game is named THIEF, some comparisons have to be done.

So what is Thief 4 exactly? It's a decent at best and flawed stealth game, a horrible entry in the legendary franchise and a critical and commercial failure. Did I like the game? Short answer is sorta. Both yes and no.

Why YES? Because there haven't been many stealth games over the years and even fewer are worth mentioning at all. Thief 4 does tick some boxes as far as a standard modern stealth game should: it has some freedom, optional objectives, secrets, different ways t and styles of play.

Why NO? Because beyond the above, it's hardly any good. It does not live up to the classics like hitman 1-4, Splinter Cell Chaos Theory and especially not Thief 1-3.

It's a waste of money, both ours and the publisher's. Why? Because it's a hollow, uninspired game. It has no reason to exist, other than to make money. There's no unique concepts behind it, no interesting ideas, no good story that somebody wanted to tell. While the same can be said for many games, the Thief series are nothing short of masterpieces, so I think it's a fair complaint.

So what is so wrong about it? Well, everything. The story is horrible, the writing is horrible, the level design is sometimes decent, mostly average, sometimes abysmal, gameplay is average.

Levels are small on their own, connected by in-game loading times, which are frequent (every time you climb through a window via the same tiresome animation, that's a hidden loading zone if anyone did not notice) and it's even progress breaking for people who want to find all unique loot items in the level. Each mission has several points of no return, where you climb a fence, jump through a window or something similar and you cannot go back. There's no indication of that, so by the time you figure this out, you're out of luck and you need to restart the level if you missed something. This is poor design, plain and simple. The people who were designing these levels were either incompetent or just did not care. Either way, it's a big flaw, since one of the game's features are hidden collectibles.

The visuals fail to deliver. Sure, textures are detailed, each room is detailed and shadows and lighting are good, but the art is generic to say the least. The city has no personality, everything looks the same and at its best, it comes slightly close to looking like Thief 3, a console-focused game on a broken engine that aimed at 64 megs of ram that the xbox had on board. Thief 1 and 2 had much better art, every level had its own feel and unique art assets. During Thief 2's development, the lead artist traveled to Europe and took many photos of old buildings and streets to take inspiration from. These days, you can google all that, but the montreal team did not even care enough to bother.

Audio. Thief 1-3 had superb music, ambient and sound design. It was immersive, haunting and sucked you in. It felt like an actual living world. Thief 4 fails miserably in that regard. Close to no footsteps can be heard, so you can't hear enemies nearby anymore like in the old games and that's disappointing for a current gen game with probably 10 times the budget all three thief games combined.

The music ranges from average ambience to generic batman-esque "epic score" that is incredibly out of place. The main menu music felt like it belonged in a Batman Arkham game. And if you ask me, it is the most memorable piece of music written for the game. Embarrassing for a Thief game, plain and simple.

And of course, let's not forget how broken the sound engine is. Ambient music would stop playing at all, killing what little atmosphere the game had. Dialogues would loop and you'd hear the same 5 lines of dialogoes over and over, sometimes even playing twice at the same time, which is a bug I've never seen before in 15 years of gaming. Many patches later, it is still not fixed, but hey, at least they addeed mantle support!

Speaking of audio, cutscenes are ruined by it as well. Garrett's voice is hardly heard, while the other characters speak loud and clear. If the game did not have subtitles, half the time we'd be missing out on some poorly written dialogue. Might that be a blessing in disguise? Oh and why do we need a two second loud music\noise clip playing every time we knock somebody out? I'm no expert on sound design, but apparently the guy who made this had similar credentials.

Gameplay is average at best. Rope arrows are gloried "push button to open a new route" events. There's no interraction with the world, besides the same animations of stealing loot that get old after an hour. You cannot jump, meaning your freedom is limited. May seem like not that big of a deal, but when you cannot jump over a simple small trap and have to look for a hidden switch somewhere in the room, it screams linearity more than anything else. Garret's focus mode is optional, but the thing is, a lot of the game's secrets and even some puzzles are build around using it, so instead of finding a clever solution to a problem you either have to use the vision mode or find the linear solution through trial and error.

Custom difficulty levels are welcomed, but sadly, those were last minute additions and the game's design shows that in full glory. I beat the game twice, once on normal and the second times on a custom master difficulty of over 700 points, where it would be mission failure if I got caught, knocked out somebody, killed anything or recieved any damage. I also had no magic vision mode, no trinkets that make it easier to play and had a limited barebones arsenal of arrows and flashbombs to chose from. It was hardly ever challenging and mostly frustrating, because the game was not designed to play like that. I started out with the idea of have zero suspicions in the stats screen, but soon realized that it is impossible. You cannot get certain loot without making the guards suspicious and even worse, the AI would freeze at certain spots and not return to their routes, blocking progress altogether. On some average difficulty, it's a decent and short game, but on those custom difficulties, the game shows just how broken and flawed it is and each of its many design flaws are doing their best to be noticed. By the end of my second playthrough, I felt miserable for all the wrong reasons.

I won't comment much on the story and writing, it's just horrible. The new Thief setting is generic and lacks personality. All the factions and everything that made the Thief universe special is gone. Why even name it Thief? Apart from cashing in on a legendary franchise that is.

It's a horrible use of license and this may sound harsh, but the woman who wrote that script is a talentless hack and I hope she never works on anything worth mentioning again. The absolute worst part is finding old Garrett's eye in that generic asylum. Really, that smart and charismatic master thief who could escape any prison just died in some basement of some hospital? Its moments like these when I am actually happy this game did not sell well, as bad as that may sound.

And isn't it funny how they replaced the original Garrett voice actor Stephen Russell? They replaced him for someone who sounds similar, but more generic, just so that they could do full motion capture for cutscenes. I could understand it if the cutscenes were actually any good, but they are not. Garrett's lip sync is off at best, non-existant mostly. So they pretty much replaced a talented voice actor for someone who did a worse job for absolutely nothing. Lip sync is broken, motion capture is average at best, nothing even close to say Max Payne 3 with its superb facial animations in cutscenes.

So, here's the thing, I played this game with zero expectations. I did not expect a good sequel to the old Thief games and I was not blinded by nostalgia. I just expected a well made game like Deus Ex HR was and it did not deliver. Clearly a big part of the talent who made DX:HR left the studio during the ugly development of Thief 4 and I don't think there's really any going back from that, especially with people getting downsized after the poor Thief 4 reception. In fact, I am not looking forward to a new Deus Ex either or anything made by this developer, since if Thief 4 is any indication, there's no talented people left there to make it.

So why do some people enjoy this title despite all the flaws? Why did even I somewhat enjoy it? The reason is simple - there are few new stealth titles out there and most AAA games these days are awful. Does Thief 4 deserve the bad reception it got? Yes and no. Yes for reasons stated above and no, because it is still better than the best selling Call of Duty and Battlefield games and in some way, it is a shame that linear mediocrity like Call of Duty sells like hot cakes, while a stealth title with lots of secrets and some mild freedom does not sell much.

But the reality is, stealth games require more effort and the standards are higher than for a AAA linear shooter. Because of a lack of such games, Thief 4 is acceptable and playable and even occassionally fun. I found myself lowering my own standards just to enjoy a new stealth title and that says a lot.

The way I see it, games can be judged by two sets of standards, one set by modern games and the other set by classics such as Thief 1-3. By modern standards, Thief 4 is decent and fun and might even be a bit of a fresh air. But classic game standards, it is a horrible game to say the least. The question is, which of the two stardards did you apply to it?

I remember a time when I would rather have a decent new Thief game than nothing at all, but these days, I am sobering up and realizing that you should not lower your standards, indeed you should stand by them. Personally, I don't need another bad Aliens or Predator or Terminator movies and I certainly don't need another bad Thief game. I'd rather keep those fond memories and move on to other things. Hell, you can replay Thief 1-3 each year and enjoy it, finding new secrets and whatnot. Same really goes for an old movie, you can always rewatch it. That or widen your horizons, look for new good things. Hell, the indie scene provided some great stuff like Hotline Miami, Sir You Are Being Hunted, Wasteland 2 and Gunpoint, inspired and creative games that are better than anything AAA had to offer in years.

In retrospect, maybe Thief 4's failure will lead to something better, maybe Eidos Montreal will hire new people and they will lead their next development with inspiration and vision. But I doubt it. I guess the point I am trying to make is that if anything, you should not lower your standards, but instead support the people who actually make creative, fresh and interesting experiences and not just do what some ignorant publisher and the shareholders want. Those creative people deserve the money, not people like the ones who made Thief 4. They failed to make a solid and interesting game and the game's failure is justified.

That said, it's simply my opinion on the game and as with any product, your mileage may vary. But the way I see it, it's an entertainment industry and if you can't entertain, you do not belong here, period. So in a way, I think it is wrong to support Thief 4 because because it's the only new decent AAA stealth game out this year. Same as it's wrong to claim Splinter Cell Blacklist is a great game just because it is better than Conviction and goes back to actual stealth, when in fact it is a shallow and generic copy of Chaos Theory at best. I disagree that by not supporting mediocre stealth games, we are killing the stealth genre. If anything, greedy publishers and talentless hacks are killing it. They are to blame, not us. I think we should vote more carefully with our wallets, otherwise generic AAA junk will ruin all our favorite genres eventually and nothing will repair the damage.

So yeah, those are my thoughts. Thanks for reading. Input is appreciated.

[Vik]

Yeah, right. Just because we have standards and taste, we're spoiled. Indeed, let's celebrate every AAA cashgrab abortion that comes our way, who cares if it is 10 times worse than previous games that came out over a decade ago, who cares if such games do nothing but piss on great franchises. If you think this is a "wothy" reboot as you put it, you're what's wrong with this industry, lacking any taste and thinking this crap is not only acceptable, but worthy of 60 bucks.

[Vik]

You're about as funny as ebola.

[spoofsfor2]

Is it wrong to agree and disagree with everything being said here?

Personally I love the stealth genre it is something I find needs to be promoted more then on going violence in other games even if I like them as well. It gives you patience and reasoning, in the case of Thief I don't see it low graphic really, I mean we could expect much worse, I think the problem is that it HAS been so long since a Thief installment that we grew to high of what we might get out of it rather then series like Hitman or Assassins Creed, so we made our expectations almost out of the ranges. Should we like Thief, it's a personal opinion I believe, that shouldn't be said as the game sucks but rather what they can improve on and how we can promote that improvision. Bottom line is Looking Glass is gone, they provided us with great games but it's gone. I know a lot of people are butt hurt but they tend to overlook the points in the game and go straight to the down sides.

Why I can't like it. -
In a sense like I said I agree that it just comes of as a rip off of Dishonored, like several pointers, that the beginning in Dishonored - you have to save Emily and the same goes about in Thief with Erin. The plague for Dishonored, the gloom from Thief, even the game mechanics prove to show, the visions, the ability seems to copy right after it. But we perhaps forget that Dishonored was inspired by Thief?
The loading screens were overused though, I get the cute blue shades that deadly shadows used but that was a different time, when it was acceptable, if they wanted it would have been better to use it as a detail and not as an actual loading screen.
My problem isn't so much who had the concept first or the idea of the plot, it's more the options of stealth that got me down, I mean the moss....I loved the moss and many other tricks from the original games, that's what I wanted to see. More tricks, not so much magic or any anything fancy, I like it a classy - let me pick a pocket - game.

The plus side though?
I find the graphics, on the xbox one, to be well, shadowing wonderful, ambiance magnificent, and Garret/ new enemies well designed, in fact the leather is a good look for him...a really good look. The watch and Ravens aren't really easy to kill though on master however, I don't care what is said, it is believable as well that an arrow to your head would kill you, which leads me to then ponder about how much old of the game do people want, unrealistic super-human strength from the watch? When Garret get's a sword to his stomach he doesn't get back up, I like that, as much as I like the fair death of the others in the game.
Think about it though, wouldn't these rants be the same if they kept Thief as the same as the old? Wouldn't we had said, what's new, it's just the same? I like that he hasn't the memory of his past, that he was gone for a year, that the keepers ended in ruin, it leads to a plot if they continue the series. For those who don't agree that this is nice I can find the timeline pretty agreeable, in a life time (I said this in another chat), we have made cars, tv, flights to the moon etc., I am positive that the world of Garret could have grew to something more.
Because of this I am left curious about the series, hooked by the need to be him and the fact they left us with the choice, to live as a ghost or practically a stone cold killer leaves the person with freedom and I like that in a game. The fact that Garret points out to Erin he really isn't for killing also shows who you are as the gamer, what really plays in your mind. A plus, which is why I love Infamous as well.
Another key point is within the game there are hints to the plot within the texts, the actions in cut scenes, the loading texts etc., almost as a puzzle, which yes the puzzles aren't bad either. I rather find it then enjoyable, and I am hurt that these "fans" don't stick by the game and help it better it'self, and rather just blame it. They say our minds tend to block out what we don't want to hear and I start feeling that that's all Thief is getting, instead of people pointing out optimistically, they rather see the series sink (not everyone but manly the people I speak to). Am I for the game? Absolutely, it's not glitchy or lagged, the voice cast wasn't as bad as some games I could mention, again graphics, you want pain of graphics try the 2013 Aliens, that game would make your brain bleed.

What do I want from another installment if it's made?
Let's be honest, we have all seen our favorite series take a wrong turn, like Silent Hill who did that god darn awful Book Of Memories, but look they made another swift come back with P.T. hence what I am getting at here is that when a series such as Silent Hill or Call of Duty has been milked we give them shots more because we overlook their faults. Thief has hit that boo-boo in the series, because it's been so long it shocks us, as if Superman left us, we would grow those expectations until he arrives, (Duke Nukem anyone?).
So having that said, this is what I would ask for:
The levels I find them spacious enough as is, there should be focus on time, hours to how long he can be out as in real life, wouldn't that be interesting, on master mode, to try and go before the sun rises?
If Eidos makes another catch for Thief I want to see Drunk Benny again too ;A;, less loading screens, a continuence that fully explains this confusing story line that they have thrown us in yet I enjoy, new tricks (hell interview thieves they could help) and certainly if anything more, bring some spunk to the series where if Garret speaks others are alerted! It would make sense, if a lockpick can be heard surely a voice can, I am not worried about the Pagans, the Keepers and the Hammerites vanishing, it would be nice to still have them though I like the idea of introducing new characters and scenes.
So yes I am looking forward to the new turn of events be that they do provide that AAA.

Staying Hopeful-
(I know this is long as well, sorry everyone.)

[Vik]

I do appreciate the effort, but ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, you're so wrong on several accounts.

First of all, expectations weren't that high to begin with, The moment fans saw how the new Thief looked, the highest expectations came in the form of cautious optimism at best, if that. People knew damn well this would not live up to the old games, but still hoped it would be a good game. That's reasonable, even if the spectacular drop in quality of recent AAA gameswould suggest otherwise. And if you noticed, Hitman 5 was bashed a lot as well, despite being much better than Thief 4. Ass Creed and its fans can both go the way of the dodo as far as I'm concerned, because dull gameplay that's full of repetition is not my idea of a good waste of 60 bucks, you can get a good drink and a decent b-job for that much.

And yes, Looking Glass is gone, has been since 2000. But that did not stop other studios from making great games, Thief 3 included. And "butthurt" is such an idiotic and troll-worthy choice of wording, almost makes me think if that somehow reflects on your attitude.

The dishonored comparison is absurd and even offensive to Dishonored, since apart from a few story and art themes, there's nothing really similar about them in terms of gameplay or level design. Dishonored, while flawed, it's a much better stealth and exploration game, miles ahead of Thief 4. Also, not sure what you meant about combat being hard or not hard or whatever, that's hardly a complain either way, since it's a stealth game first.

Story wise, you can talk about timelines all you want, but you're missing one key problem - the new timeline/universe/whatever, it sucks. It lacks the charm, depth, ambience and personality of the original games and without the old factions, there's nothing interesting about this new city. Now it's just a bunch of poor dirtbags and rich dirtbags, talking about the non-existant plague and throwing F-bombs left and right because that's the only way the developers are able to convince us this is a bad place full of bad people. Compared to the original trilogy and even taken on its own right, there's nothing interesting about this setting and the plot the developers failed to properly explain is so weak anyway that there's hardly any need for a sequel to explain it in detail, since nobody really cares anyway.

What you seem to fail to understand is that this game is not hated by people who love call of duty or whichever other crap AAA game you want to mention, it's hated by people who want an actually good game, not one with a weak story, weak setting, average gameplay, horrible dialogue and incredible inconsistent design. Screw being hopeful at this point, I don't want to see the Thief name being butchered again by the same idiots who think inserting ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ into the game is a great storytelling innovation.

[DMRN]

Автор сообщения: Vik

Don't be naive, this is not a case of innocent until proven guilty, but quite the opposite. She has a track record of bad writing, idiotic concepts and desires to do things like make Lara gay and she already made it clear what part of the writing she is responsible of. You can "don't know either way" all you want, but there's enough proof that she's a bad writer and only made this bad game worse. Benefit of the doubt does not work here.

One question to this line of reasoning:

If a single individual has this much creative autonomy over the skeleton which the rest of an AAA game is built on, why do we require indie games to see innovation and originality? Cause surely you don't suggest that writers have free reign, while all the other devs are chained down by executive meddling.

[Vik]

What free reign? She's simply a bad writer who wrote some really bad dialogues and even admitted on a forum as to which parts of the game she worked on. Or do you honestly believe that she's actually one of the best writers in the industry, but game after game after game, once she signs each contract for the job, suddenly some evil CEO with his evil moustache comes in and tells her that she has to write really bad and cliche dialogues or she'll be fired and blacklisted from the industry? I know the AAA industry is pretty much the gas chamber for creativity by now, but this woman has written bad script after bad script after bad script for all kinds of studios and games and personally, I don't believe that just because she's a woman, she should get a free pass.

[DMRN]

How about not dodging and answer the question? How can you be so sure the responsibility falls entirely on her in an industry where artists are cuffed at the hands and feet? How do you reconcile those two narratives?

[Mr Hanky]

I've haven't seen a good writer in gaming in over 10 years

[Vik]

Guilty until proven innocent. That is the new American way.

Look, nobody is dodging anything here. The simple facts are in front of you - you have a writer whose mediocre track record speaks for itself and a final product with bad, uninspired writing. You have her explaining what parts of the product she was responsible for and you have the final product to judge for yourself. And on several occassions you can find interviews throughout the years of her making excuses for her sloppy work, when, from what I saw anyway, there's not a single thing she wrote that I'd call above average, let alone great. You be the judge on that and connect the dots yourself.

You want my two cents? The problem here is that she's a woman working in the gaming industry, so who cares if she's talentless, just don't you dare say she's bad at what she does, because that makes you sexist and does not go well with the industry's misguided attempts at political correctness. Hell, if the idiocy she says in her interviews is any indication, what I sarcastically said above could be her reaction to any critique aimed at her anyway. This is a person who thinks making a character gay for diversity's sake is actually a really brave thing to do and she's disappointed that most people in the AAA industry are not "brave" enough to go that far. If this woman actually cannot see past her political and social justice views and it affects her job, that's a problem as far as I am concerned. My speculation is that she was responsible for at least one of the two ♥♥♥♥♥♥ characters in Thief 4 and her superiors said yes to that because it seemed edgy and "brave". Hell, she even admitted to developing one of those ♥♥♥♥♥♥ characters, just I have no idea if that was her idea from the start.

Feel free to miss the point and call me sexist if you want, but the truth is that I am all for gender equality. But equality also means taking responsibility when you did a bad job. Is she to blame alone for the flaws in this game? Of course not. But if you take into consideration the quality of her previous writing efforts and her misguided social views, my conclusions is that her input did more harm than good to say the least.

And let's talk about diversity in writing for a sec. Keep in mind, this paragraph is not directly aimed at the hack of a writer we're discussing, but a general observation. Adding a gay or trans character for diversity's sake does not make for good or "brave" writing, not by any stretch. It's bad writing driven by personal social views. And if you ask me, when a writer adds a gay or trans character, hell, any character to a story, the question he/she should ask themselves is why should such a character be added? Is it for story reasons? Is it because the character is interesting? Is it for realism's sake? Or is it just because he/she is gay? When the defining element of a character is his/her sexuality, that character is nothing but a caricature, a stereotype placed into the story for some cynical and/ misguided reason that has nothing to do with creativity. It's not for the benefit of the story or narration, it's a plain move to promote one's views on the sexuality subject and/or provoke some sort of reaction from the consumer/media. That's bad writing. Thief 4 is a great example of it - the two transexual characters have no depth to them and have no reason to exist, except to maybe surprise and shock the players. Their only defining quality is just that, them being ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Hell, the second character is a bearded dude in a dress, which is not only offensive if you ask me, but really immature and done in really poor taste.

That's a great example of poor taste and bad writing and considering this is the kind of "brave" writing Rhianna Pratchett has been casually advocating in her interviews, well, that's yet another reason why in my book she's a bad writer and guilty until proven innocent.

[Mr Hanky]

You pretty much summed up modern media lol

[Sir Taffsalot]

Heh, inclusion of transexual character was actually praised in some reviews. From RPS one:
"Rather splendidly, the same area of the game features the first incidence of a trans* character that I can recall in a mainstream game."

[Vik]

Yeah, RPS lost some credibility in my eyes with that.

[spoofsfor2]

Автор сообщения: Vik

I do appreciate the effort, but ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, you're so wrong on several accounts.

First of all, expectations weren't that high to begin with, The moment fans saw how the new Thief looked, the highest expectations came in the form of cautious optimism at best, if that. People knew damn well this would not live up to the old games, but still hoped it would be a good game. That's reasonable, even if the spectacular drop in quality of recent AAA gameswould suggest otherwise. And if you noticed, Hitman 5 was bashed a lot as well, despite being much better than Thief 4. Ass Creed and its fans can both go the way of the dodo as far as I'm concerned, because dull gameplay that's full of repetition is not my idea of a good waste of 60 bucks, you can get a good drink and a decent b-job for that much.

And yes, Looking Glass is gone, has been since 2000. But that did not stop other studios from making great games, Thief 3 included. And "butthurt" is such an idiotic and troll-worthy choice of wording, almost makes me think if that somehow reflects on your attitude.

The dishonored comparison is absurd and even offensive to Dishonored, since apart from a few story and art themes, there's nothing really similar about them in terms of gameplay or level design. Dishonored, while flawed, it's a much better stealth and exploration game, miles ahead of Thief 4. Also, not sure what you meant about combat being hard or not hard or whatever, that's hardly a complain either way, since it's a stealth game first.

Story wise, you can talk about timelines all you want, but you're missing one key problem - the new timeline/universe/whatever, it sucks. It lacks the charm, depth, ambience and personality of the original games and without the old factions, there's nothing interesting about this new city. Now it's just a bunch of poor dirtbags and rich dirtbags, talking about the non-existant plague and throwing F-bombs left and right because that's the only way the developers are able to convince us this is a bad place full of bad people. Compared to the original trilogy and even taken on its own right, there's nothing interesting about this setting and the plot the developers failed to properly explain is so weak anyway that there's hardly any need for a sequel to explain it in detail, since nobody really cares anyway.

What you seem to fail to understand is that this game is not hated by people who love call of duty or whichever other crap AAA game you want to mention, it's hated by people who want an actually good game, not one with a weak story, weak setting, average gameplay, horrible dialogue and incredible inconsistent design. Screw being hopeful at this point, I don't want to see the Thief name being butchered again by the same idiots who think inserting ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ into the game is a great storytelling innovation.

I can see where your coming from, however I find it within the right for those who support the game to be entitled to their opinions as well. Personally I agree, Creed is well repetitive, and so are other stealth games, what is lacked here is the wide lense to see that this reboot had it's long time come, ten years and you expected the greatest of Thief, as well as something to compare to the first two and that it's darn better then that repetition or unnecessary large city feel without being able to sneak into homes etc., which Thief did somewhat provide.
What makes an AAA game is not only the game it'self but the province of fans who show interest and want to improve the game.
As far as "butt-hurt" Yes, I am as well one of them who wishes it was here but can we really compare the game to it's predecessors, yes/no.
(No) You have the new team, new approach etc,. So in a sense it is not the old game at all. It is an interpretation of the old game. Say for example, you take the Looney Tunes we grew up with vs the one now adays, or the prices of foods then and now. I say people are not giving the game a chance, let alone another chance for Eidos to get back in the line of that AAA standard.
(Yes) Simply because this is Thief - Garrett and the world around him. That the games did have stories that connected and drew in the player, that it was more of a stealth game (for this I note that you questioned my position on the combat I say this because in many forms it is one pesky concern why he is able to kill more efficiently instead of hiding or sneaking, but he can choose to do either if he would like).
Again I would like to raise that these AAA games most times are crap, at least ones that are promoted, so what makes a game AAA in the first place when people are more interested in that repetitiveness, customizations & how it appeases. Not to mention how it sells, no matter what it really is or how the trailers lied to us and the game play would be completely different.

One of my favorite games Return to Mysterious Island did not have the best graphics or controls as it relied more on point and click, but gave more of an appeasing factor by it's puzzles, simplicity and often frustrating isolation on an Island, fact of the matter is I liked it. If a reboot was made of it would I say I hate it, it's bad, I can't stand it, not really I could be disappointed but I would keep an open mind and give them the three chance spectrum to see if it get's worse or they heed the warnings and learn from the mistakes.

Far as the Dishonored statement I stand by it, the games are very similar, in fact the producer of Thief - Stephane Roy, said he loved Dishonored. On gamefront.com, it clearly states that Dishonored before hand was inspired by games such as Deus Ex and Thief, and there is an Easter egg hidden within it's lay out. I don't find that insulting when it is obvious they were co-hand in hand. I point out however that what made me dislike this reboot and I stand hopeful that if another installment is made, they come up with a truly original concept as the first 3, with it's own story, not to be inspired by something that was towards it. It's like a loop that I know Eidos can give better, straight forward in the dirrection of what we want.
Finally, please do not insult my thoughts or character, this is a discusion over the game not who I am, I would like respect as much as everyone else, thank you.

The links below give a more thuro explanation of Dishonored and Thief :

http://www.gamefront.com/dishonored-how-to-find-the-thief-easter-egg/

http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/04/thief-takes-major-cues-from-dishonored-the-game-inspired-by-thief-preview/

[DMRN]

Автор сообщения: Vik

Look, nobody is dodging anything here. The simple facts are in front of you - you have a writer whose mediocre track record speaks for itself and a final product with bad, uninspired writing. You have her explaining what parts of the product she was responsible for and you have the final product to judge for yourself. And on several occassions you can find interviews throughout the years of her making excuses for her sloppy work, when, from what I saw anyway, there's not a single thing she wrote that I'd call above average, let alone great. You be the judge on that and connect the dots yourself.

See, this is acceptable to me. But you already argued with someone else last page who presented a choice between letting bias rule convictions, or stay somewhat agnostic given that there are other possibilities, those of executive meddling, to explain things. But even that wasn't good enough for you, and you persisted in indicating that she had to be not just responsible, but solely responsible.
That is a far cry from "here is the evidence, what do you think?". IMO you have unwisely overreached yourself.

You want my two cents? The problem here is that she's a woman working in the gaming industry, so who cares if she's talentless, just don't you dare say she's bad at what she does, because that makes you sexist and does not go well with the industry's misguided attempts at political correctness.

Maybe. Let's put that to the test, shall we?

During the 2014 development Stephane Roy was the lightning rod for negative fandom reaction, the face of this aborted development. To the point where he seemingly stopped making appearances for a while. Me, I think that was unfair. Not knowing how things transpired, and seeming to remember that Roy was brought in late in development, it is my knee-jerk reaction to think he was merely a puppet for Squeenix, a face to take all the blame for creative problems he was virtually unable to solve.

If I am alone in this, then maybe you are right, and any defense of Pratchett is just SWJ'ing. But if others are open to thinking Roy was just as much a victim in those areas of production he was in charge of as she was, then maybe you are wrong instead, and this really is a question of appropriate blame distribution within an interconnected complex. As in, "Given the same talent and training and facing the same circumstances, would I be able to do better?" and the answer being "No".

Input, guys?

This is a person who thinks making a character gay for diversity's sake is actually a really brave thing to do and she's disappointed that most people in the AAA industry are not "brave" enough to go that far.

It *is* brave. Having gay characters as mere background fluff without making a big deal about it, as if the game world aped reality, that is damn brave. Just not necessarily dramatically appropriate, for example by referencing that fact for no reason, thus wasting "screentime". So if you intend for this example to be damning, you should include some context.

Adding a gay or trans character for diversity's sake does not make for good or "brave" writing, not by any stretch. It's bad writing driven by personal social views.

This reminds me of recent discussions about the viability of "obiective" game reviews. Where personal biases and slants are somehow intolerable, as opposed to human, inevitable, and even a boon to the work. Transpose to writing and biases -feelings- becomes a damn important component. I couldn't disagree more with your implication that an artist is supposed to be an unfeeling, unpolitical machine or their work will suffer. Total nonsense IMO. You hire people for their specific strengths, and the ability to channel certain feelings or worldviews are definitely among those.

If a certain aspect of a character is irrelevant to the story but needs to be represented somehow anyway, there is nothing wrong with a writer letting their personal biases and views filter through by choosing a representation that appeals to them. Only if it detracts from the work somehow can you claim the biases got in the way of good writing. And I don't remember a thing about Thief 2014 where characters being transsexual changed events or broke with tone. The character had to be there and had to be of a given sex and wear certain clothes. So why not break some ground while filling out these background necessities?

Chekov's Gun only applies when something extraneous is added. The brothel manager being there and needing characteristics are not extraneous. In fact, the only way I see your argument working is if just having ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in a game is so much of a lightning rod that it is intolerable unless made a big story point of. That it is somehow insulting to have them as background details. If I were to accuse you of intolerance, that is where I would aim my sword.
Personally I won't deny a negative knee-jerk reaction towards transsexuals, which is why I think adding them to the game only *added* to the general atmosphere and grit EM insisted on painting my beloved Thiefverse with. Just like references to piss and explicit sex scenes. It wanted to be gritty and ugly in the extreme, and the addition of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ helps that IMO. So if anything I'd argue the inclusion of such background details was not merely acceptable in its irrelevance, but indeed added to the aesthetic. Which is the opposite of what you need to show bad writing.

When the defining element of a character is his/her sexuality, that character is nothing but a caricature, a stereotype placed into the story for some cynical and/ misguided reason that has nothing to do with creativity. It's not for the benefit of the story or narration, it's a plain move to promote one's views on the sexuality subject and/or provoke some sort of reaction from the consumer/media. That's bad writing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aH4coe_VYY

By your reasoning Benny the Guard is an example of bad writing too. He is a stereotype, a caricature, and he has no relevance to the plot. But just like a trans character, he reinforces the atmosphere of the game world. Where they are ugly, he is stupid and funny. That is a problem with the direction EM took the franchise, not the inclusion of these characters in their respective games.

[spoofsfor2]

With all do respect, I feel that you have misunderstood the part of fair share speak and the fact of gaming being to enjoy and discreation goes as far as the old saying if you don't have anything nice to say don't say it at all, if you believe something about me do respect that I would not like your investment in dictating my persona.
A- Calling me a troll, B -insiting my beliefs are inferior C- that any evidence I bring is insufficient D- What I should say.
(I am stating this to everyone in general, it is quite frankly rude.)

For you saying my lose in feelings towards those who developed the game-

It is to their discretion as much as ours as them being writers, concept artist, developers ect,. I speak of this as a writer in fact, and when I make an opinion I do not consider myself a puppet or otherwise when I am to host something with people booing me even if it was someone else's fault. If Roy was against the making of the game would we really ever know being that face to face, in a personal stand point is almost unheard of? The facts are infront of many people, facts of effort within the game, through any creation is art, be it awful or not it is still someone's breath of time.

As far as opinions -

I find it brazen to say that the only adequate means in this disscusion is to what people want to hear and not others words. I value yours as much as anyone else, but I am fairly intilted to say I enjoy the game. As well I think that from what I have seen, the let down is in the community itself. For everything it comes to it is bullying the means of the game, it is a creation, be it a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ which I as well find an offensive term, being that I am well oriented with how the LGBT community stands firmly against the use of it, or drunk Benny, the atmosphere, the mechanics, story like etc,. In fact drunk Benny is not a stereotype if anything, drunks are known to slur their tongues, and many other things. How someone potrays a character is their showing of how they view society, so to say no effort was put into the game on glace you could say was correct, but the fact is many hours indeed were entailed, there were people behind it, and the words spoke from the "fans" have been none other then hypocritical.
especially to define one second that there was no effort, then to revert those words and say that they have a soul (how you say the game was pathetic, no muse, and yet an idol dare I say, as Roy is being used). How do you think it makes a game developer feel to hear such lashed out words, I have looked at many of these comments, and that would hurt anyone. If it was regarded you would understand that, just as I could say from my interpretation as to yours through the game should be valid enough to what was documented, presented is evidence and personal opinion can be reflected on emprovision but not hate - which only leads to segregation of opinions and an unhealthy debate, let alone any conversation.

Having that said you may dislike the game at will, as I may like it, but the fact of the matter is that turning me into a villian here only shows that the integrity and value of one's opinion is on aggressive premisses, be anyone right or wrong. It still shows the inadequacies, slander, and the inability to compliment the positive - inprove the game, so on and so forth. Instead of demonizing I ask simply not who wishes to take pleasure in the game but, as a community we wish to seek out the best performance in order to inprove it. Hence asking - who should take over and write the stories, how should Garret act, what needs to be (loading screens should not be yet the blue mist is a pretty touch so explain that) After all, if many medical practitioners, scientist and else argued the old way was better we would not have many advancements as we have today, and in fact those who did act on that, that the world was flat got left in a time that was and not is. This rule is the same for gaming as it is to the invention of consoles, - cartridges to disks now to downloads, we are moving forward, and need intel, for any action that we do as much as the developers do. If someone dislikes a game, shouldn't the conversation be instead - what we want to see, how to catch the fans attention and what makes us believe a game is AAA?

Again, I mean no disrespect but I find it rather harsh the words that are spread through this line, especially towards me. I believe that we all chose to block out things we don't want to hear, I have my dislikes and my strengths for Thief 4, and I ask that one retains in a debate not to make things personal, but to put facts on the table and argue them out. I implore strongly that, we use not words of who's voice is stronger, instead open our minds to a greater picture here. In a sense I am complimenting your view of the situation DMRN, however I still retain a neutral discretion and believe the game is not as bad as it is portayed to be.
Which in fact I find Thief 4 to mimic almost exactly the same principle of Thief 2, where the Mechanist what to strive for a new age, interestingly enough Thief four follows that with the Watch denouncing the old order for their way of law. And similiarly to Dishonored, does plague struck, in the form of the "gloom". In fact, if anything there are many connections to the trilogy in Thief 4 as well as a story, which I would be happy to point out if needed, just let me know. :3

Agreement to my stand point in this video and chat about Thief 4 being pretty good -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmKd2gPlyYw

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/691087-playstation-4/70147143

As far as drunk actions -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTrqGwj3XpA


The term ♥♥♥♥♥♥ being offensive -

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AwrTccFfL7xUXz0AHpMPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTEzbmdoYXFmBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwNF8x?qid=20100911112958AAfCbIH


(which stating her name is Madam Xiao Xiao, who did protect the girls when conversating if you recall? If that stereotype is bad then I would like to know what good is.)

Her character sheet -

http://thiefgame.wikia.com/wiki/Madam_Xiao-Xiao