I don't understand the backlash

[Vulgrim]

As a qualifier, I've played and loved all earlier Thief games, and it was those games that ignited a strong interest stealth games as a genre.

And no, I don't own them on Steam, because back when I played them you would have to go out and purchase them, on a cd, and play them that way.

Anyway, I don't see how people can hate this game so much, the backlash is huge for a game that's just not as bad as people are making it out to be. I'm geniunely enjoying the game, and while I certainly can't say it's one of the best games I've ever played it is a perfectly serviceable kleptomaniac simulator.

I can't think of any version in which spewing a great deal of vitriol at this game isn't some form of just being spoiled. Sure, there are a few annoyances, but not enough to warrant the ridiculous hatred the game gets, in fact I somewhat regret not paying more than seven dollars for it.

There are publishers out there routinely shoveling out games in FAR worse shape that are ten times as bad as this and taking many years to get "good" at their series, whereas this one came out and had a perfectly good foundation and people seem to think it's so bad it might as well have insulted their mother.

Even adjusting for the subjective nature of gaming in general and accounting for the group which would find this game not "their cup of tea" it's still a competently built game that is no less offensive than the recent (and highly praised) Deus Ex remake. As a result, I just can't understand this huge wave of negativity aimed here, especially given that it's likely to make the Thief series to appear difficult to "market" and make it highly unlikely we ever see more modern Thief games.

[Popemas†er]

Originally posted by bloodraven43:

btw...thief 1 and 2...swords where bigger then the light sabers in star wars...so realistic that a thief would have a sword that big and so would every other character in those games. sounds like a great game to me, so does the song, three blind mice. this is why thief 3 was changed up and thief 4 was too. its a thief game on every level. cant wait for thief 5, the same as this one was made.

Realism does not equal fun. Quite the opposite in my opinion. I would take the sword any day over contextual animations for EVERY single action. I can't even count how much time I wasted opening windows, cabinets, and desk drawers over and over and over again, showing the same animation for the millionth time. It got to the point where I would bypass loot or an area to save myself from watching another animation. Playing this game is a chore, EM eliminated all the fun when they tried to make this game so serious and realistic. Freaking Taffers...oh wait no one uses that word anymore.

[SaltyCrab]

Originally posted by Popemas†er:

Originally posted by bloodraven43:

btw...thief 1 and 2...swords where bigger then the light sabers in star wars...so realistic that a thief would have a sword that big and so would every other character in those games. sounds like a great game to me, so does the song, three blind mice. this is why thief 3 was changed up and thief 4 was too. its a thief game on every level. cant wait for thief 5, the same as this one was made.

Realism does not equal fun. Quite the opposite in my opinion. I would take the sword any day over contextual animations for EVERY single action. I can't even count how much time I wasted opening windows, cabinets, and desk drawers over and over and over again, showing the same animation for the millionth time. It got to the point where I would bypass loot or an area to save myself from watching another animation. Playing this game is a chore, EM eliminated all the fun when they tried to make this game so serious and realistic. Freaking Taffers...oh wait no one uses that word anymore.

The sword was probably the most useless item in the entire originals. True, realism doesn't mean more fun but it should still make sense in someway.

Windows I can understand, but drawers? So you thought lockpicking was too realistic?

Taffer is said in Thief 4 among other made up swear words.

[Sir Taffsalot]

EM's idea of "realism" is apparently to take away control from the player and to interrupt gameplay every few seconds. Anyway as far as lockpicking is concerned my favourite is from DS (I also like how that game handled melee weapons, you got dagger instead of sword, that has way more sense for a thief and the dagger was basically useless in open combat)

Originally posted by TafferAnakara:

The sword was probably the most useless item in the entire originals. True, realism doesn't mean more fun but it should still make sense in someway.

Windows I can understand, but drawers? So you thought lockpicking was too realistic?

Taffer is said in Thief 4 among other made up swear words.

I think i heard couple of NuGuards discussing how some old guy caled one of the "taffer" and how that was apparently first time they heard someone use that word. That was basically only time I heard it in Thief 2014.

In any case, what Thief 4 did was not an attempt at realism, just plain lazy game design. Contextual movement and lack of free jumping was there to ease the work for level designers, animations and QTEs for opening the windows or moving through the rubble were just a bad attempt at hiding loadings.

[Popemas†er]

Originally posted by TafferAnakara:

The sword was probably the most useless item in the entire originals. True, realism doesn't mean more fun but it should still make sense in someway.

Windows I can understand, but drawers? So you thought lockpicking was too realistic?

Taffer is said in Thief 4 among other made up swear words.

I would have to disagree. On an average playthrough, the sword could be used as a reliable solution to being caught. It is also very effective against undead and other inhuman enemies. The sword was part of the story. Garrett was trained to use a sword by the Keepers, it's not like he just picked one off a guard and decided to start using it.

When I said drawers I was referring to the writing desks that have four drawers that NuGarrett opens to check for loot. The lockpicking is fine, I'm cool with that.

Like Sir Taffsalot said they only "mention" it. EM throwing out another empty reference to try and link back to the originals. My point was it's all so serious now, no more made up words, no more dry humor. Because what person could be immersed in a world where they don't use real profanity!? And all the K00L games are doing it!

[SaltyCrab]

Originally posted by Popemas†er:

Originally posted by TafferAnakara:

The sword was probably the most useless item in the entire originals. True, realism doesn't mean more fun but it should still make sense in someway.

Windows I can understand, but drawers? So you thought lockpicking was too realistic?

Taffer is said in Thief 4 among other made up swear words.

I would have to disagree. On an average playthrough, the sword could be used as a reliable solution to being caught. It is also very effective against undead and other inhuman enemies. The sword was part of the story. Garrett was trained to use a sword by the Keepers, it's not like he just picked one off a guard and decided to start using it.

When I said drawers I was referring to the writing desks that have four drawers that NuGarrett opens to check for loot. The lockpicking is fine, I'm cool with that.

Like Sir Taffsalot said they only "mention" it. EM throwing out another empty reference to try and link back to the originals. My point was it's all so serious now, no more made up words, no more dry humor. Because what person could be immersed in a world where they don't use real profanity!? And all the K00L games are doing it!

How was the sword part of the story? It plays no major role at all. Garrett happens to have have one, that's it. It doesn't drive the plot or anything. If you are going to add a weapon to the story, might as well add the bow. It's in every freakin' ad known to man. Last I heard, Garrett was a person so if he wants to carry a fairy wand with him then so be it. If Garrett lost his sword in game, no one would give a crap.

The combat system in the game is so horrible that it tends to discurage you from fighting...which is kinda the point. I suppose but the Zombies move so damn slow that you can just walk right past them, there is no point in hitting them with the sword. The only time I bothered to use the sword was to disable the haunts but even then I just snuck past them. The other time you have to use the sword, is in Trail of Blood in Thief 2 to get past the ice. Apart from those senarios, it was pretty much pointless. It's like the dagger in Thief 3, it's there but most people would rather not use it. Although you do need it to complete an objective.

It's the same world at a different time so it makes sense for other language to make it in. I will give this game credit in how it handles the world: The City is a terrible, corrupted s*hit hole and for once this series is focusing on the citizens as a major plot point vs you just coming across them. They are experiencing an epidemic they probably have never experienced before and the primal actually drives them mad. They are all completely friggin' miserable.

Taffer is fine, but when it's your ONLY made up swear word (that comes to my mind, please correct me on others) it beomes rather silly. From what I understand about what Taffer means it's: Thug, fool, Thief, Crap, Damnit. I just hear this most of the time: You silly *beep* you!" "Come back here you *beep*!" "Beeeeep!" Adding other vocabulary kinda helps out a bit and kinda gives Taffer a more defined meaning.

I don't mind Thief being a bit more serious. Honestly, there were only a few parts of the originals that I have laughed out loud at. Anything with those two guards, guards in general, some of the nobles, some of the thieves in the Thieves Guild. Garrett has a few snarky lines but for the most part he is serious, at least in Thief 2 and 3.

[Sir Taffsalot]

Im starting to think that you only pretent to have played older Thief games, just like that bloodraven kid.
Sword is a part of original games plot. Taff it, you are stealing a sword in a mission that is even called The Sword, and that mission is one that most players consider the best is first Thief. And that specific sword does make sense for Garrett: character that hired him to steal it wanted to test his skills, and that sword always remains completely dark unlike regular one that reflects light and makes Garrett more visible so at least in theory should make his job easier.

About The City, new one indeed is a dirty broken hellhole, with people dying in the streets, sound of families arguing inside their homes, and dirt everywhere. It is a generic grimdark reconstruction of generic 18-19 century european city. Bit of victorian London, bit of revolutionary Paris, more dirt and human suffering everywhere.
Original City was a very different place.

[Popemas†er]

Originally posted by TafferAnakara:

The combat system in the game is so horrible that it tends to discurage you from fighting...which is kinda the point.

Yeah I agree, but I'm not saying you go start fights with the sword, it's more of a last resort, defensive weapon. Unless you are this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1YmjRp0i8o

Like Sir Taffsalot said, Thief TDP/Gold has a mission called "The Sword," what more do you want?

[SaltyCrab]

Originally posted by Sir Taffsalot:

Im starting to think that you only pretent to have played older Thief games, just like that bloodraven kid.
Sword is a part of original games plot. Taff it, you are stealing a sword in a mission that is even called The Sword, and that mission is one that most players consider the best is first Thief. And that specific sword does make sense for Garrett: character that hired him to steal it wanted to test his skills, and that sword always remains completely dark unlike regular one that reflects light and makes Garrett more visible so at least in theory should make his job easier.

About The City, new one indeed is a dirty broken hellhole, with people dying in the streets, sound of families arguing inside their homes, and dirt everywhere. It is a generic grimdark reconstruction of generic 18-19 century european city. Bit of victorian London, bit of revolutionary Paris, more dirt and human suffering everywhere.
Original City was a very different place.

Yeah the games are in my library just for fun and show, I didn't actually install them. Same with the disk versions I have in my CD case by the computer.

So because I have a different opinon on/ question something, that automatically means I haven't played it. I have been playing them since 1998 and have been part of the Thief community since 2004. I was also a member of the Thief 2X team, but who cares about that.

Oh I am sorry, I thought you meant the sword itself as being the plot driver (you mentioned the Keeper Training), not Constantine's Sword. That changes a few things then.

I knew you were going to bring up that art mission. Yeah, you do steal a sword which actually starts to get the plot going (half way through the game), as you meet the person who becomes the main antagonist. The sword is still worth nothing though as it was a test for Garrett to see weather or not he could steal the item that the client really wanted: The Eye. He was allowed to keep it as a token of goodwill and to assist him in his quest.

The description given to you in game for Constantine's Sword is: "Seems to prevent your foes from noticing that you have it drawn, even when you're about to strike" which is total BS because it doesn't actually do anything in gameplay (which I guess that's the point because later on it is discovered to be nothing but a waste of time in order to trick Garrett into stealing the Eye). If you draw the damn thing in "Undercover", the AI runs to hit the alarm. The only special thing about it is that it doesn't reflect light like a regular sword, so Garrett does become less visable (as you mentioned) when he has it drawn. So yeah apart from its appearence it is not very special when compared to just a regular sword. It also can destroy apparitions which saves a lot on flashbombs so that's one positive.

By all means though, tell me what else it does.

The Eye holds more weight then it.

So to review:

Does the sword start the plot? Yes. Constantine commissions Garrett to steal it.
Is it important? Absolutley not. It's about as useful as a cold egg McMuffin.

It doesn't matter what the item is in the end. The sword is not special.


As for the City, yeah it's gone through some changes but Thief 1 was the closest it came to what was presented in Thief 4. Really dirty and grimy. Which is what you think of when someone says, Corrupted Crapvile. That should be its new name.

Then you got Thief 2 which was too damn clean for me. Did Karras also invent street cleaners? Sorry I just didn't like the look of the streets in Thief 2.

Thief 3 was..not sure what to make of it actually, gloomy?

I get that you don't like the new game, but I can admit that the originals are not perfect.

Originally posted by Popemas†er:

Originally posted by TafferAnakara:

The combat system in the game is so horrible that it tends to discurage you from fighting...which is kinda the point.

Like Sir Taffsalot said, Thief TDP/Gold has a mission called "The Sword," what more do you want?

I am fully aware of that Mission, it's like a strange drug induced nightmare maze of bad interior design. It starts a series of events, but it's not what I call a driving force as the sword isn't very useful, other than tricking Garrett into doing stuff. Sword itself is pointless though. It was also Constantine's own damn sword. .

Not my favourite mission anyway.

[Miss 512]

The sword itself is completely irrelevant. The heist itself is what was important to the plot. All the sword acts as is a McGuffin; something for Garrett to steal. It could have been a necklace, a painting, hell it could have been a slice of pie and it would have done the exact same thing: prove Garrett's worth as a thief. The entire mission was a test of thieving ability.

This fixation on Constantine's sword misses the entire point of the plot of that mission. If you think it was important to the plot then that means the plot flew right over your damn head.

[...]

"Master Taffer"
That nickname sounds awfully familiar.

@TafferAnakara
A question! Were you perchance a member of moderating team on Eidos forums, together with this Master Taffer fellow?

[SaltyCrab]

Originally posted by Agent Cooper:

@TafferAnakara
A question! Were you perchance a member of moderating team on Eidos forums, together with this Master Taffer fellow?

No.

[percolator fish]

Originally posted by Agent Cooper:

"Master Taffer"
That nickname sounds awfully familiar.

@TafferAnakara
A question! Were you perchance a member of moderating team on Eidos forums, together with this Master Taffer fellow?

Dont know about him but I'm 99% certain this Master Taffer and MasterTaffer of old Eidos forums "fame" are the same person.

Check his profile, unless he decides to switch it to private. He IS the same person.

[Miss 512]

Yeah, I am. Anakara is not. And that's relevant to the discussion how?

I'll save you some time: it's not relevant.

[percolator fish]

Nothing you say is in any way relevant.

[Miss 512]

Cute. So because I serve as a forum moderator elsewhere, anything I say is null and void.

What an intellectually bankrupt fault in logic.