This game is just fundamentally broken

[Calculus]

1. Game is not only slow paced with waves, but you are also constantly waiting for more crystals while doing nothing. You just wait because you can't afford buying anything.
It goes completely against automation games, where you are constantly working on new designs, building new production lines etc. You are never just waiting around.
2. There is nothing stopping you, its even better since at the beginning of a wave all your units are cleared out, to just build a belt storage, which means you will just store insane amount of units on a belt and release them to one shot bosses.

How to fix it?
Rework combat completely, remove the whole build and combat phases. Enemies should be going at you all the time with a grace period only at the beginning of a round.
Basic buildings should be unlimited, either remove crystals or rework them, so they can be used as a temporary boost for example or you can build special structures or upgrade existing ones.

In short, remove the idle part of this game, it only hurts the experience

[Discerning Divinity]

feel like Its kinda early to be saying 'broken' game ain't even 'built' yet so funny choice of words. Seems pretty unfair to say it is slow paced as its clear to me that the slow pace and lack of crystals is just a facet of the early game, obviously as you tear down an area and re prioritise space your bank of crystals is rebuffed allowing you to spend plenty time building new areas which will constantly expand and become more complex meaning you will have to invest more time setting them up. The rate of crystals coming in of course limits your ability to expand overall but Honestly I think its clear to see that past the demo levels there will be plenty to do to keep your hands full and choosing what to lose and rework as part of managing the amount of crystals you currently have to work with will be an interesting part of this game. From personal experience the crystals (after a few upgrades to my crystals per second) weren't even my limiting factor even just by the end of the demo! after careful consideration and using free build to keep efficiently reorganising I was being roadblocked by not having anyway to get shapes coming in faster to produce more units despite an amassing pile of crystals.

on the note about stacking up units on conveyors and sending them into a wave. you get xp each time a unit goes through the portal it was my assumption (perhaps incorrectly I have not verified) that you only got xp for those that did not make it into a wave which would mean that the incentive to not do this is the sacrifices you are making to xp for it.

In short this is shortsighted, unreasonably harsh criticism of mechanics that have only revealed the tip of the iceberg

[Calculus]

Originally posted by Discerning Divinity:

feel like Its kinda early to be saying 'broken' game ain't even 'built' yet so funny choice of words. Seems pretty unfair to say it is slow paced as its clear to me that the slow pace and lack of crystals is just a facet of the early game, obviously as you tear down an area and re prioritise space your bank of crystals is rebuffed allowing you to spend plenty time building new areas which will constantly expand and become more complex meaning you will have to invest more time setting them up. The rate of crystals coming in of course limits your ability to expand overall but Honestly I think its clear to see that past the demo levels there will be plenty to do to keep your hands full and choosing what to lose and rework as part of managing the amount of crystals you currently have to work with will be an interesting part of this game. From personal experience the crystals (after a few upgrades to my crystals per second) weren't even my limiting factor even just by the end of the demo! after careful consideration and using free build to keep efficiently reorganising I was being roadblocked by not having anyway to get shapes coming in faster to produce more units despite an amassing pile of crystals.

on the note about stacking up units on conveyors and sending them into a wave. you get xp each time a unit goes through the portal it was my assumption (perhaps incorrectly I have not verified) that you only got xp for those that did not make it into a wave which would mean that the incentive to not do this is the sacrifices you are making to xp for it.

In short this is shortsighted, unreasonably harsh criticism of mechanics that have only revealed the tip of the iceberg

Yep, i'm harsh because there is a fundamental issue that must be adressed. It's not such thing as lack of variety, lack of optimalization. It's a fundamental issue that requires a major changes in how the game works.
Game is very slow paced where you have an ability to slow down time. It's a major red flag that shouldn't be ignored.

[mamiya_dev]

Originally posted by Calculus:

1. Game is not only slow paced with waves, but you are also constantly waiting for more crystals while doing nothing. You just wait because you can't afford buying anything.
It goes completely against automation games, where you are constantly working on new designs, building new production lines etc. You are never just waiting around.
2. There is nothing stopping you, its even better since at the beginning of a wave all your units are cleared out, to just build a belt storage, which means you will just store insane amount of units on a belt and release them to one shot bosses.

How to fix it?
Rework combat completely, remove the whole build and combat phases. Enemies should be going at you all the time with a grace period only at the beginning of a round.
Basic buildings should be unlimited, either remove crystals or rework them, so they can be used as a temporary boost for example or you can build special structures or upgrade existing ones.

In short, remove the idle part of this game, it only hurts the experience

Thank you for your feedback!
Regarding the second point, it is indeed a significant issue, and we are aware of it. We have come up with a good idea to address this problem, and we will take action. Thank you.

We will continue developing to create an interesting and innovative game, so please keep an eye on our progress.

------------------------------
(Machine Translation.)

[Hueban]

honestly i had almost the opposite experience after picking two cristal income upgrades, where i felt i didnt have enough time to rebuild without using the pause cristal thing

[Percy Jackson]

Originally posted by Calculus:

1. Game is not only slow paced with waves, but you are also constantly waiting for more crystals while doing nothing. You just wait because you can't afford buying anything.
It goes completely against automation games, where you are constantly working on new designs, building new production lines etc. You are never just waiting around.
2. There is nothing stopping you, its even better since at the beginning of a wave all your units are cleared out, to just build a belt storage, which means you will just store insane amount of units on a belt and release them to one shot bosses.

How to fix it?
Rework combat completely, remove the whole build and combat phases. Enemies should be going at you all the time with a grace period only at the beginning of a round.
Basic buildings should be unlimited, either remove crystals or rework them, so they can be used as a temporary boost for example or you can build special structures or upgrade existing ones.

In short, remove the idle part of this game, it only hurts the experience

It's a demo for an game not even released into Early Access.
You should not evaluate it as anything more than a proof of concept.

In my case, I liked it. The graphics and technical aspects (no bugs, etc) were spot on.

Balance can always be fixed. The core gameplay loop is great, and that is what I like.

[Calculus]

Originally posted by Percy Jackson:

Originally posted by Calculus:

1. Game is not only slow paced with waves, but you are also constantly waiting for more crystals while doing nothing. You just wait because you can't afford buying anything.
It goes completely against automation games, where you are constantly working on new designs, building new production lines etc. You are never just waiting around.
2. There is nothing stopping you, its even better since at the beginning of a wave all your units are cleared out, to just build a belt storage, which means you will just store insane amount of units on a belt and release them to one shot bosses.

How to fix it?
Rework combat completely, remove the whole build and combat phases. Enemies should be going at you all the time with a grace period only at the beginning of a round.
Basic buildings should be unlimited, either remove crystals or rework them, so they can be used as a temporary boost for example or you can build special structures or upgrade existing ones.

In short, remove the idle part of this game, it only hurts the experience

It's a demo for an game not even released into Early Access.
You should not evaluate it as anything more than a proof of concept.

In my case, I liked it. The graphics and technical aspects (no bugs, etc) were spot on.

Balance can always be fixed. The core gameplay loop is great, and that is what I like.

You know how they sometimes give free samples of food?
Your logic is literally "well, if you didn't like free sample you should still buy it because it might be better"

Like yes, balance can be fixed... if it gets pointed out by someone. Either by someone in development or by somoene who played the demo.
Then about proof of concept. I literally, pointed out a fundamental element in the game.

Like, what is with people who are like "don't you dare criticize anything about the demo/early access"... they literally exist for people to figure out if they like it

[bone.js]

Originally posted by Calculus:

1. Game is not only slow paced with waves, but you are also constantly waiting for more crystals while doing nothing. You just wait because you can't afford buying anything.
It goes completely against automation games, where you are constantly working on new designs, building new production lines etc. You are never just waiting around.
2. There is nothing stopping you, its even better since at the beginning of a wave all your units are cleared out, to just build a belt storage, which means you will just store insane amount of units on a belt and release them to one shot bosses.

How to fix it?
Rework combat completely, remove the whole build and combat phases. Enemies should be going at you all the time with a grace period only at the beginning of a round.
Basic buildings should be unlimited, either remove crystals or rework them, so they can be used as a temporary boost for example or you can build special structures or upgrade existing ones.

In short, remove the idle part of this game, it only hurts the experience

1. The initial wave is slow, but subsequent turns, your constantly fighting against to clock.

2. you can store units like you said. however, you cannot store enough units to last the full the duration of enemy waves. at some point your at the mercy of the strength of your production line. Also, you loose out on all the exp they would of generated during the build phase. every time a unit goes to the portal, when not in combat, they are turned into exp. So yes, maybe you'd get through a couple waves easier initially, but it will cost you in the long run. with the loss of exp and further level ups.


managing what resources you have is core part of the game play.

[Percy Jackson]

Originally posted by Calculus:

Originally posted by Percy Jackson:

It's a demo for an game not even released into Early Access.
You should not evaluate it as anything more than a proof of concept.

In my case, I liked it. The graphics and technical aspects (no bugs, etc) were spot on.

Balance can always be fixed. The core gameplay loop is great, and that is what I like.

You know how they sometimes give free samples of food?
Your logic is literally "well, if you didn't like free sample you should still buy it because it might be better"

Like yes, balance can be fixed... if it gets pointed out by someone. Either by someone in development or by somoene who played the demo.
Then about proof of concept. I literally, pointed out a fundamental element in the game.

Like, what is with people who are like "don't you dare criticize anything about the demo/early access"... they literally exist for people to figure out if they like it

No. My logic was, I liked the game. And I have a different standard for a free demo compared to a paid game.

If you don't like the game, or the demo, that's perfectly fine. Just keep in mind, it is a demo. And no one is forcing you to buy it if you don't like it.

Is there scope to improve the game, sure. Will they improve it. I sure hope they do. But I will buy if only if I like what I am getting at that time.

[capnwhorley]

it was probably slow paced because instead of sending you guys through to get XP you built storage and couldn't level up and increase your crystal production.

The idea of storage will probably not be optimal during the full release because you will be completely under leveled for future stages that will require a huge and expensive factory among other things that i don't feel like explaining.

But if you switch up your strategy I am sure that your problems will be fixed.

Also if you reworked and made the basic buildings free it would remove the engineering challenge to optimize all of your buildings, all of the efficiency upgrades and challenges to incorporate them into your builds would be removed because you can just make more instead of making it better

[Calculus]

Originally posted by capnwhorley:

it was probably slow paced because instead of sending you guys through to get XP you built storage and couldn't level up and increase your crystal production.

The idea of storage will probably not be optimal during the full release because you will be completely under leveled for future stages that will require a huge and expensive factory among other things that i don't feel like explaining.

But if you switch up your strategy I am sure that your problems will be fixed.

Also if you reworked and made the basic buildings free it would remove the engineering challenge to optimize all of your buildings, all of the efficiency upgrades and challenges to incorporate them into your builds would be removed because you can just make more instead of making it better

1. At the time when i wrote this, sending dudes would only give xp to the send dude, meaning you have stronger troops, which would realistically impact only the first wave.
2. You still have to deal with the limited space and resource nodes. If you ever played games such as factorio, satisfactory or shapez you would know, that just building more is a terrible strategy that always results is a huge underperformance and if you really want to keep crystals, its better for it to have them as an additional resource that you mine rather than a passive income.

[capnwhorley]

its sounds like you just want another automation game since making the buildings free would let you be maxed out at the first round.

The idea of mining the crystals is definitely possible but the amount of space, and ores in a single chunk makes you more likely to have even less crystal than before.

It is still a tower defense and a rouge like. The developers want you to lose due to a deficiency of skill or resources intentionally so you can upgrade and come back even stronger.

[[兵器] - Yuhiko]

Originally posted by Calculus:

1. Game is not only slow paced with waves, but you are also constantly waiting for more crystals while doing nothing. You just wait because you can't afford buying anything.
It goes completely against automation games, where you are constantly working on new designs, building new production lines etc. You are never just waiting around.

As you've stated, from that post on thing have/might have changed, nevertheless from current personal point of view:
While initially slow paced, time, or waiting, is part of most automation games, especially early on. Using the resources (time as well) as you get them, while ideally not leaving any "extras" around would be ideal, but waiting will still be a case in most games - some just pass it by having to move around.

Originally posted by Calculus:

Basic buildings should be unlimited, either remove crystals or rework them, so they can be used as a temporary boost for example or you can build special structures or upgrade existing ones.

Being able to place "unlimited" would still remove the idea of having to plan out stuff, in my opinion. It'd just mean using all the space one has as soon as possible, instead of planning on how to use it first? I mean, even other automation games don't have that, from those I played.

Originally posted by Calculus:

Like, what is with people who are like "don't you dare criticize anything about the demo/early access"... they literally exist for people to figure out if they like it

I think the main issue here is just phrasing - (this part is not just a response to you)
But statements like "it should be" or "do this, that" imply "either this or nothing" (regardless of personal opinion(s))
Providing feedback is fine, sharing one's personal opinion is fine as well, although thinking on how to bring it across can also help in communicating - as well as thinking on what the person meant. (Although written a bit "pushy" (sorry unsure on words to use here) it's still a suggestion, so being aggressive towards that is not necessary)

Originally posted by Calculus:

2. You still have to deal with the limited space and resource nodes. If you ever played games such as factorio, satisfactory or shapez you would know, that just building more is a terrible strategy that always results is a huge underperformance and if you really want to keep crystals, its better for it to have them as an additional resource that you mine rather than a passive income.

Even in factorio one needs to wait. The waiting time there, however, is mostly just bridged by having to walk around to get the materials or "manually mine" stuff initially - it's not free there either, although quickly snowballs away to the point of getting more resources than one can use occasionally - just to be short on resources again after massively expanding and having to wait to finish the expansion. (Waiting times do exist here, too, however, even if it's abridged by having to walk around, but atleast does give the feeling of doing something)

Personally I feel like it's fine currently, so long as later stages do require some more crystal costs and all that. (Space is limited, yes, but it also seems to expand later down the line, so it's not just a once filled and done deal) so balancing the later part will be important.

As such, again, personal opinion, having a slow start with some waiting phases is perfectly acceptable - managing resources is the focus point in automation games - and time (be it used as a resource to build, or not) is still a resource in the end - with options to speed up and slow down, waiting times early on can be pretty much squished down, and the slow be used to catch up again if overshooting, or restructuring.

(Can't say much past the demo, so that's something I'll still have to see to further comment on, but it can certainly be fine with crystals the way they are now, assuming it's not too abundant and not too scarce later down the line)

[Kaezeribato]

Originally posted by Calculus:

It goes completely against automation games, where you are constantly working on new designs, building new production lines etc. You are never just waiting around.

Factorio and Satifactory, factualy the two best of the genre, literaly start like this... Every good automation game make you start with barely anythings and have you build up over time.

[Calculus]

Originally posted by Kaezeribato:

Originally posted by Calculus:

It goes completely against automation games, where you are constantly working on new designs, building new production lines etc. You are never just waiting around.

Factorio and Satifactory, factualy the two best of the genre, literaly start like this... Every good automation game make you start with barely anythings and have you build up over time.

I don't think you read it correctly.
In other automation games you are constantly doing something, either working on new designs, gathering resources, exploring. Not just standing there and waiting

[Kaezeribato]

Originally posted by Calculus:

I don't think you read it correctly.
In other automation games you are constantly doing something, either working on new designs, gathering resources, exploring. Not just standing there and waiting

At the start, in most os these game, you spend a lot of time waiting for ressources.
Only people who know these game dont have to do this as they know how to rush things.

Here it's similar, during the first and second mission you'll wait a lot, but you quickly end up with more ressources than you can spend.

I'm not saying the game cant be improved, but in all the game i did, only the two first mission had me waiting for ressources.