"This game has been dumbed down" EXPLAINED

[[Lemons] w!z@rD]

So, I've read a lot of threads and reviews and have come to the conclusion that I need to elaborate the infamous arguments like "Magicka 2 is just a dumbed down Magicka 1" and "the balance is so fked up".
Before I start, let me say that I've played the original Magicka for over 1700 hours, Magicka: Wizard Wars for over 450 hours and Magicka 2 for 15 hours (this includes the sneak peek), so I know what I'm talking about.


Many people complained that there were, like, 3 spells in Magicka which were super op and made anything else useless. Well, they're wrong.
There were actually about 30 spells in the original Magicka which were very useful, most people just didn't bother experimenting.
During my long play time I have met countless of people and only very few actually experimented with the spells. For example, people (even with +20 hours) often used single element spells, which I found very lame usually so I just casted a large protection aura against that element, which made their spell useless.
What did they do? Did they try to use different spells, made of other elements? Nope, they just kept casting that one spell until they died helplessly.

In Magicka 2 it's the other way around, all spells (except for maybe explosive rocks and mines and earthquakes) are equally ineffective which forces you to use multiple spells at the same time (like EAR storm mixed with SSSSS beam).

Why is it a bad thing to let people chose how to play the game?

If they wanted to use only 3 spells (QRQREAS, QFQFASA and ASRE for example) and had immense fun with it, where's the problem?
I think this is one of the major reasons Magicka 2 is getting so many bad reviews, especially from people who have played the original Magicka. They can't play the game the way they want to anymore. They are forced to accept the developers' design choices.
If you chose to be a boring wizard in M1 and only cast fire sprays and arcane beams, then that was your choice, but you could also be a powerful wizard and cast all sorts of other spells which were much better than simple ones (and more satisfying).

At this point let me say that I think it makes sense, that 'complex' spells like QFQFASS are much more effective than for example FFFFF.
M1 rewarded players for muscle memory and for being able to remember element combinations.
M2 doesn't do that, at least not as much. There are cooldowns on magicks, mines take time to charge up damage, walls take longer to explode. All these things make the game easier for beginners, but lowers the skill cap immensely.
Actually, do you know what one of the best combos currently is? Selfcast EFFFF (F/S/R) and then selfcast spam DFFFF (F/S/R). That's 2 elements and 5 key presses per spell in total, while in Magicka the most powerful spells were probably QFQFASA and QRQREAS (5 elements, 7 key presses per spell).

Now, the next point I want to address is the deal with Sony and how it obviously affected the spell system:

Playing with controllers is much easier now, not just because they reworked and improved the keybinds, but also because the game has been balanced much in favor of controllers. And they also majorly decreased the advantage k&m has over controllers.
The cooldowns on magicks
Sure, it's not a bad thing to have cooldowns on spells like Thunderbolt to prevent people from spamming it over and over again on bosses, but it limits k&m a lot. Actually there's, like, a global cooldown when using the element combos to cast magicks, which prevents you from casting magicks completely (via element combos, but not via hotkeys) for a few seconds.
As I mentioned above, the way mines, explosive walls (EDSX, WEDX) and rocks work are a further indicator that they tried to prevent the quick casting of spells, which decreases the k&m advantage.
Furthermore, many spell animations take much longer now than in the original Magicka and even Magicka Wizard Wars.

The next issue are wards and the overall balance.

Magicka had the problem that the monsters
- didn't use mixed damage types,
- were generally too weak
- and that armors (!EDX) were too powerful.
This made the game really easy once you got accustomed to casting armors and auras and knew all the good spells.

In Magicka 2 they slipped into the other extreme by
- nerfinmaking wards extremely weak
- AND making monsters cause different damage types and tougher overall.
Also the damage of all spells have been nerfed (as previously said).

They either should have nerfed wards and kept the monsters as they were or buffed all the monsters but kept wards as they were.
That all spells should be equally useful was a good idea, really! But unfortunately they are equally useless, instead of equally useful.

It is very hard to defend incoming damage and it's equally hard to kill monsters before they kill you. Getting killed because you simply can't avoid the damage in any way, does not make for a nice challenge, it makes for "OMGWTFIMGONNATHROWMYCOMPUTEROUTTHEWINDOWAAAARGH" moments.

Ice and Steam (and further arguments about the overall balance)

In the original Magicka steam and ice were individual elements and could be combined with lightning. Some people loved QREAS and QFAS and some hated those spells and said that they basically ruined the game (even though they weren't forced to use them).

I personally think that Magicka 1 was balanced quite well, but did have some flaws. Flaws which could have been fixed easily without making all spells equally bad and removing ice and steam as independent elements.

Lets assume they had kept ice and steam the way they worked in M1:
To fix the "op" spells they would simply have to:

• decrease the damage of QREASX to a degree where it's still much more useful than for example FFF sprays or pure lightning, but low enough so that people don't spam it anymore.
  
• decrease the damage of spells containing steam and lightning, and keep the lightning damage multiplier on wet units.
  OR
  Keep the damage of QFAX spells, but remove the ability to wet from pure Steam. That way you would first have to cast SQ and then QFQFASS

Other goofs, which are mentioned in reviews and forum posts

• can't queue elements while in mid-air.
  Have fun fighting goblin bombers or any other units that throw you into the air.
  
  
• It's not possible to rebind the key binds. Though the developers are already working on it, so it won't be an issue for much longer.
  
  
• Hitting with weapons doesn't always work.
  
  
• The range of lightning is way too huge. If you use an Area Prism imbued with lightning, it'll likely kill you and your friends rather than the enemies.
  
  
• Apparently single player is too hard for many players. (I personally didn't have any issues so far, even on Bananas mode)
  
  
• Some people (including me) have graphic and sound problems.

Writing this took me way too long, I hope my effort wasn't for nothing

[Oykenshui]

It's totally not dumbed down. It's exactly as the OP said, things we're changed (for the better) and people can't get over it. I'm glad a lot of the OP spells are gone now.

[Caridor]

引用自 Otto_Von_Chesterfield_Esquire：

It's totally not dumbed down. It's exactly as the OP said, things we're changed (for the better) and people can't get over it. I'm glad a lot of the OP spells are gone now.

You didn't read the OP did you?
As for it not being dumbed down, it has objectively, been made less complex and thus, is actually dumbed down.

[KoTioN]

Author +1.
I dream about the "artifact of the old magicka system"...\

[[Lemons] w!z@rD]

引用自 Otto_Von_Chesterfield_Esquire：

It's totally not dumbed down. It's exactly as the OP said, things we're changed (for the better) and people can't get over it. I'm glad a lot of the OP spells are gone now.

Did you even read the op, I don't think so. I did say that things were changed, but I didn't explicitly say whether those changed were good or bad.
I'm glad that the op spells are gone now too, but I dislike that they reduced the effectiveness of all spells. Geez, why am I even writing this? Just read the op again and all the comments that have been posted by now.

引用自 Indure：

引用自 Lemons w!z@rD：

But what do you guys think about this?

I apologize if I am misunderstanding this, but this ward system seems to be incredibly strong. It would have the equivalent strength of Wizard Wars and that game only has a 3 element combo system. Not to mention in Wizard Wars you are fighting against opponents that have access to all element types and are intelligently trying to kill you.

With 5 elements and against dumber AI opponents the wards would be incredibly powerful.

It would not be incredibly strong since you would only be able to fully protect against two elements (no damage absorption). There are many situations in Magicka 2 where the game confronts you with multiple damage types at the same time.
For example (I made this one up): cold goblins from the west, fire goblins from the east and shamans and goblin bombers as support from north and south.
This would still be quite challenging with the ward system I'm proposing, since it would confront you with physical damage, fire damage, cold damage, CC+fire/physical damage and occasional arcane damage and the wet status.

And just as comparison, in the original Magicka single elements would make you immune, for example QFEASF made you immune against steam, lightning, arcane and fire. And while I would like it like this in M2 I think it's more important to find a middle ground to satisfy Magicka 1 diehard fans AND the people who have liked Magicka 2 so far.
And the ward system I've proposed (actually, Argotha posted it on the PDX forum before, but I would have figured it out myself as well, I guess) is a pretty good compromise I'd say.

In fact, people who are posting here don't seem to understand what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to establish a middle ground. Magicka 2 will not be a successful game if it continues to get bad reviews on Steam from people who are pissed off by the fact that it is so extremely different from the original. Currently only 63% of the reviews of Magicka 2 are positive, while the original has 94% positive reviews.

[Solinarius☕]

引用自 Lemons w!z@rD：

In fact, people who are posting here don't seem to understand what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to establish a middle ground. Magicka 2 will not be a successful game if it continues to get bad reviews on Steam from people who are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ off by the fact that it is so extremely different from the original. Currently only 63% of the reviews of Magicka 2 are positive, while the original has 94% positive reviews.

You've tried to create awareness with this thread. However, I think you need to make another thread that seeks to find that middle-ground, while outlining the most glaring issues with the spell types, as you see them. The core of Magicka 2 probably won't be changed, but wizards can have a resurgence of their much-wanted ability, by a large margin of the community, to obliterate, annihilate, and eradicate all that moves with awesome magic. The difficulties need to be adjusted along-side the elements and spell types.

[Gilder The Squidslinger]

Honestly don't like Magicka games much either way simply because I hate the control system. Hate these Diablo style control games. Why I never finished Torchlight games. I also don't want to memorize spells and then have to pound keys in a certain order all the time to do them. If I played it more, maybe I'd change that. But there are reasons I only ever play these games once or twice.

I do appreciate the depth Magicka has. However, one of the big problems with M2 and why I don't want to play Magicka games more than once is the fact that the boss fights or even normal fights are either a pain or they get really repetitive.

M2 I'd dread entering new areas because I knew I'd have to sit there fighting enemies over and over that only ever run at you. Fights constantly turn into use magic, run, rinse/repeat. It is dull. There is no point to even using melee weapons. The weapons and drops you get are virtually pointless as they switch between risk for rewards on extremes and never really provide a decent benefit without making you extremely weak in other ways.

Some fights in M2 are also virtually nothing but running and reviving over and over. Everything moves at the same pace with the same attack patterns. Its poor design with cheesy jokes tacked on. The jokes and such aren't even that good compared to the original.

The only redeeming factor with M2 is the mentioned controller improvements which open up quick macro buttons where a spell is preloaded instead of having to cast it. Once I started to use these more, fights became a little less run and spamfests. Heck if I could preload a lot of spells to macros, I'd probably like this game more as I wouldn't have to suffer through on the fly memorizations.

[Happy]

@Gilder

Lol, fall for the popularity and thought you'd give it another shot?

That keeps happening with me and RPG. I find them horribly boring. Yet I keep getting the big name ones. I regretted Skyrim so much, such a crap game.

Currently resisting Witcher 3. Maybe it'll be the one to make me love RPGs!? No it wont! It's a trap, you'll hate it!

[Olrek YT/Kick]

引用自 Lemons w!z@rD：

I'm not saying that they should fully revert to the original ward system, as this would just make the game to easy, but they should at least buff the wards a little, like this:

• EF = 50% resistance to damage and prevents the burn status from being applied
  
• EFF = immunity to damage, prevents burn status and you should still be able to remove wet and chilled
  
• EFFF = absorb 50% damage (+ prevent burn & remove status effects)
  
• EFFFF = absorb 100% damage (+ prevent burn & remove status effects)

This would allow you to be immune to 2 elements at a time but still leave you vulnerable to many other damage types.
Also, stone armor should prevent you from getting thrown into the air.

I completely support these changes :D

[JackBaldy]

引用自 Lemons w!z@rD：

Did you even read the op, I don't think so.

Unfortunately much of what you're saying is falling on deaf ears. Par for the course around these parts. I wish you the best of luck in attaining the changes you desire, but until I see significant changes done to this game, I won't be boarding this ship. #2Cents

[low. Home Depot Lore Armor]

引用自 Cold Star：

You just can't review it as Magicka 1 sequel.

(Forgive me if this is late in the "game", so to speak.)

When Dark Souls came out, no-one thought it was the sequel to Demon's Souls. It was touted as the "spiritual successor". If the developer/publisher wants to make a game that uses similar mechanics but don't want it to be compared to the first one (Which, by the way, neither the developer nor Paradox have stated they don't want it to be compared to the first one so either get feedback about that or don't use that point), then they shouldn't call it "2" which is the natural progression to "1".

If this isn't supposed to be judged as a sequel, Cold Star, it should not be TITLED as one. If nothing else, you must admit that Paradox or whomever screwed up there. Bioshock Infinite was different from 2 and, even if it had a similar concept and whatnot, it was not Bioshock 3.

Magicka 2 is, again, the sequel to Magicka 1. It is a direct sequel because it has a "two" that implies there was another one that was the first one. Team Fortress 2 is the sequel to Team Fortress. Killing Floor 2 is the sequel to Killing Floor. Pokemon: Black 2 and White 2 are the sequels to Pokemon: Black and White. But Pokemon: Emerald is not the sequel to Ruby and Sapphire. Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire are not the sequels to the other games. Understand? There's a difference.

And again, Paradox is a big boy, so to speak. They don't need you trying to defend them. They said Magicka 2, they MEANT for it to come after the first one. In other words, any comparisons are valid.

[Godzilla.exe]

Very good post OP.

[Godzilla.exe]

引用自 low. Armor is My Armor：

引用自 Cold Star：

You just can't review it as Magicka 1 sequel.

(Forgive me if this is late in the "game", so to speak.)

When Dark Souls came out, no-one thought it was the sequel to Demon's Souls. It was touted as the "spiritual successor". If the developer/publisher wants to make a game that uses similar mechanics but don't want it to be compared to the first one (Which, by the way, neither the developer nor Paradox have stated they don't want it to be compared to the first one so either get feedback about that or don't use that point), then they shouldn't call it "2" which is the natural progression to "1".

If this isn't supposed to be judged as a sequel, Cold Star, it should not be TITLED as one. If nothing else, you must admit that Paradox or whomever screwed up there. Bioshock Infinite was different from 2 and, even if it had a similar concept and whatnot, it was not Bioshock 3.

Magicka 2 is, again, the sequel to Magicka 1. It is a direct sequel because it has a "two" that implies there was another one that was the first one. Team Fortress 2 is the sequel to Team Fortress. Killing Floor 2 is the sequel to Killing Floor. Pokemon: Black 2 and White 2 are the sequels to Pokemon: Black and White. But Pokemon: Emerald is not the sequel to Ruby and Sapphire. Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire are not the sequels to the other games. Understand? There's a difference.

And again, Paradox is a big boy, so to speak. They don't need you trying to defend them. They said Magicka 2, they MEANT for it to come after the first one. In other words, any comparisons are valid.

Agreed. You can't title a game with 2 and act like it's not a sequel.

Especially not if you are simply trying to get money by calling it "2".instead of (insert subtitle here).

[Cold Star]

引用自 Godzilla.exe：

引用自 low. Armor is My Armor：

(Forgive me if this is late in the "game", so to speak.)

When Dark Souls came out, no-one thought it was the sequel to Demon's Souls. It was touted as the "spiritual successor". If the developer/publisher wants to make a game that uses similar mechanics but don't want it to be compared to the first one (Which, by the way, neither the developer nor Paradox have stated they don't want it to be compared to the first one so either get feedback about that or don't use that point), then they shouldn't call it "2" which is the natural progression to "1".

If this isn't supposed to be judged as a sequel, Cold Star, it should not be TITLED as one. If nothing else, you must admit that Paradox or whomever screwed up there. Bioshock Infinite was different from 2 and, even if it had a similar concept and whatnot, it was not Bioshock 3.

Magicka 2 is, again, the sequel to Magicka 1. It is a direct sequel because it has a "two" that implies there was another one that was the first one. Team Fortress 2 is the sequel to Team Fortress. Killing Floor 2 is the sequel to Killing Floor. Pokemon: Black 2 and White 2 are the sequels to Pokemon: Black and White. But Pokemon: Emerald is not the sequel to Ruby and Sapphire. Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire are not the sequels to the other games. Understand? There's a difference.

And again, Paradox is a big boy, so to speak. They don't need you trying to defend them. They said Magicka 2, they MEANT for it to come after the first one. In other words, any comparisons are valid.

Agreed. You can't title a game with 2 and act like it's not a sequel.

Especially not if you are simply trying to get money by calling it "2".instead of (insert subtitle here).

Sooo, If they called it Magicka: infinite everything would be ok with game, since it is not a sequel? I got it.
Still better than Sacred 3 anyway)

[☣Patient Zero☣]

引用自 Lemons w!z@rD：

Now, the next point I want to address is the deal with Sony and how it obviously affected the spell system:

the game has been balanced much in favor of controllers

Awesome! I'll be avoiding magicka 2 then.

[[Lemons] w!z@rD]

引用自 Solinarius：

You've tried to create awareness with this thread. However, I think you need to make another thread that seeks to find that middle-ground, while outlining the most glaring issues with the spell types, as you see them. The core of Magicka 2 probably won't be changed, but wizards can have a resurgence of their much-wanted ability, by a large margin of the community, to obliterate, annihilate, and eradicate all that moves with awesome magic. The difficulties need to be adjusted along-side the elements and spell types.

I will post another in-depth thread about that stuff soon.
What is the core of Magicka 2 for you though?

引用自 Cold Star：

Sooo, If they called it Magicka: infinite everything would be ok with game, since it is not a sequel? I got it.

Have you thought about engaging in politics? Your argumentation methods would fit right in!