"Lost" source code

[RussianNeuroMancer]

According to publisher[www.gamingonlinux.com] source code of this game is lost. However, if you google for "thief_2_service_release.7z" you will find archive with Dark Engine source code. Community even release fixed version of the engine based on this sources (google for "NewDark").

So why people and publisher keep repeating "source code is lost" (1, 2, 3) while source code and fixed version of the engine is available?

[Kenshiro3]

WTF do you think this game runs on? If you did some research you would already know that this game is running on the afformentioned "NewDark". Believe it or not the source code for SS2 was lost. It ran on a much different older version of the dark engine than either Thief or Thief 2. This release basically running on an engine that was meant for the canceled console version of Thief 2. That's actually the reason for some of this release's issues... This game is running on a reverse engineered engine designed for a different game running on different hardware than what it was originally designed for.

[RussianNeuroMancer]

Kenshiro3 původně napsal:

Believe it or not the source code for SS2 was lost.

So this[www.ttlg.com] isn't true?

Kenshiro3 původně napsal:

This game is running on a reverse engineered engine designed for a different game running on different hardware than what it was originally designed for.

And few clicks away there is source code of this engine. Why this code can not be fixed? If NewDark developers can patch this code, why Night Dive can't?

[3quarks]

Kenshiro3 původně napsal:

WTF do you think this game runs on? If you did some research you would already know that this game is running on the afformentioned "NewDark". Believe it or not the source code for SS2 was lost. It ran on a much different older version of the dark engine than either Thief or Thief 2. This release basically running on an engine that was meant for the canceled console version of Thief 2. That's actually the reason for some of this release's issues... This game is running on a reverse engineered engine designed for a different game running on different hardware than what it was originally designed for.

it's true that I haven't got the slightest idea how exactly this particular release (i.e. the Steam one) was put together.
So I for one have no idea what you talking about.
The point he is making is the following (in plain English): "Here are the links which say that the source code WAS discovered. And another link which points to the release of two absolutely new binary executables for both Thief 2 and SS2. *supposedly* built from that source, with fixes made by someone.

The links:
https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=1947.msg22406#msg22406
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126456&page=31&p=2035146&viewfull=1#post2035146
http://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/system-shock-2-cult-classic-scifi-horror-fpsrpg-looks-like-it-is-heading-to-linux.2266/page=3#8569

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140085


P.S. I have actually played the updated SS2. Our (mine and the other poster's) interest here is to know if it could be possible to make a native Linux post of SS2. Obviously first we have to make them acknowledge the very existence of the source code, which is quite bizarrely denied.

[Kenshiro3]

3quarks původně napsal:

Kenshiro3 původně napsal:

WTF do you think this game runs on? If you did some research you would already know that this game is running on the afformentioned "NewDark". Believe it or not the source code for SS2 was lost. It ran on a much different older version of the dark engine than either Thief or Thief 2. This release basically running on an engine that was meant for the canceled console version of Thief 2. That's actually the reason for some of this release's issues... This game is running on a reverse engineered engine designed for a different game running on different hardware than what it was originally designed for.

it's true that I haven't got the slightest idea how exactly this particular release (i.e. the Steam one) was put together.
So I for one have no idea what you talking about.
The point he is making is the following (in plain English): "Here are the links which say that the source code WAS discovered. And another link which points to the release of two absolutely new binary executables for both Thief 2 and SS2. *supposedly* built from that source, with fixes made by someone.

The links:
https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=1947.msg22406#msg22406
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126456&page=31&p=2035146&viewfull=1#post2035146
http://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/system-shock-2-cult-classic-scifi-horror-fpsrpg-looks-like-it-is-heading-to-linux.2266/page=3#8569

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140085


P.S. I have actually played the updated SS2. Our (mine and the other poster's) interest here is to know if it could be possible to make a native Linux post of SS2. Obviously first we have to make them acknowledge the very existence of the source code, which is quite bizarrely denied.

I have. You missed the part where said binararies were reverse engineered from the source code of an engine for an unfinished port of Thief 2 for the Dreamcast.

RussianNeuroMancer původně napsal:

Kenshiro3 původně napsal:

Believe it or not the source code for SS2 was lost.

So this[www.ttlg.com] isn't true?

Kenshiro3 původně napsal:

This game is running on a reverse engineered engine designed for a different game running on different hardware than what it was originally designed for.

And few clicks away there is source code of this engine. Why this code can not be fixed? If NewDark developers can patch this code, why Night Dive can't?

Perhaps they just aren't interested in expending money/resources in doing so?

[3quarks]

You wouldn't (and technically speaking can't) "reverse engineer from a source". The absence of source is what makes reverse engineering necessary. The *binaries* are reverse-engineered.
And since the source is out there and was actually patched and built into working binaries for Windows, we would like the same done for Linux. Simples.

[3quarks]

>Perhaps they just aren't interested in expending money/resources in doing so?

Probably.
They are apparently interested in making (some) money on a "Linux" version though, eh? And lying about the source in the process. Though I personally think that the quote from the porting studio rather shows incompetence in the subject they were contracted to work upon.

[Kenshiro3]

3quarks původně napsal:

You can't "reverse engineer from a source". The absence of source is what makes reverse engineering necessary.
And since the source is out there and was actually patched and built into working binaries for Windows, we would like the same done for Linux. Simples.

Semantics... either way its based on the source code of the engine for the unfinsihed Dreamcast port of Thief 2. THAT is what is being mistaken as the source code for the Dark Engine in the TTLG forums.

[Kenshiro3]

3quarks původně napsal:

>Perhaps they just aren't interested in expending money/resources in doing so?

Probably.
They are apparently interested in making (some) money on a "Linux" version though, eh? And lying about the source in the process. Though I personally think that the quote from the porting studio rather shows incompetence in the subject they were contracted to work upon.

They aren not lying about the source code. Eidos ****ing lost it after it was given to them... that is why NewDark had to be based on the source code for the unfinished Dreamcast port. As I said before THAT is what is being mistaken for the the original Dark Engine Source Code in the TTLG forums.

[ps47.3dfx]

ok, let me put things into order here. here are the facts: a few years ago, a complete version of the source code has been found by unknown ex-LGS employee, he returned it to Square/EA, so right now, it's not lost, they have it - they have been asked to release it multiple times, there was even some communication with the comunity managers, but in the end, nothing got released (last status was "our legal department is working on it"). approx one year later, an incomplete version of the source code has been leaked onto the internet. some time later, NewDark has been released anonymously on a French Thief site. there is no way of telling whether it was reverse-engineered or recompiled from the first, the second, or some other unknown source, or whether it's something completely different. but it's here, it works, so lets be grateful for that.

Night Dive has nothing to do with NewDark - they've solved the legal part of the problem.

[3quarks]

Kenshiro3 původně napsal:

Semantics... either way its based on the source code of the engine for the unfinsihed Dreamcast port of Thief 2.

That's correct.

Kenshiro3 původně napsal:

THAT is what is being mistaken as the source code for the Dark Engine in the TTLG forums.

I'm not sure there is any "mistake". Whatever the source actually is, it seems that it gives the opportunity to port the game "back" to any actual platform the programmer is interested in porting to. Hence it's irrelevant, was it for DC or is it the full source for all versions (btw this https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=1947.msg22419#msg22419 post suggests so).

Now I think I'll actually search for the aforementioned archive and look at it myself ) I've became interested in process of debating.)

[Kenshiro3]

ps47.3dfx původně napsal:

ok, let me put things into order here. here are the facts: a few years ago, a complete version of the source code has been found by unknown ex-LGS employee, he returned it to Square/EA, so right now, it's not lost, they have it - they have been asked to release it multiple times, there was even some communication with the comunity managers, but in the end, nothing got released (last status was "our legal department is working on it"). approx one year later, an incomplete version of the source code has been leaked onto the internet. some time later, NewDark has been released anonymously on a French Thief site. there is no way of telling whether it was reverse-engineered or recompiled from the first, the second, or some other unknown source, or whether it's something completely different. but it's here, it works, so lets be grateful for that.

Night Dive has nothing to do with NewDark - they've solved the legal part of the problem.

THANK YOU!!!

[3quarks]

ps47.3dfx původně napsal:

ok, let me put things into order here. here are the facts: a few years ago, a complete version of the source code has been found by unknown ex-LGS employee, he returned it to Square/EA, so right now, it's not lost, they have it - they have been asked to release it multiple times, there was even some communication with the comunity managers, but in the end, nothing got released (last status was "our legal department is working on it"). approx one year later, an incomplete version of the source code has been leaked onto the internet. some time later, NewDark has been released anonymously on a French Thief site. there is no way of telling whether it was reverse-engineered or recompiled from the first, the second, or some other unknown source, or whether it's something completely different. but it's here, it works, so lets be grateful for that.

"our legal department is working on it" - means we don't give a puck. Sigh. The more I know about it, the more I think that the story of LGS could be made into a documentary.

ps47.3dfx původně napsal:

Night Dive has nothing to do with NewDark - they've solved the legal part of the problem.

So the porting company actually HAS the source?

[Kenshiro3]

3quarks původně napsal:

ps47.3dfx původně napsal:

Night Dive has nothing to do with NewDark - they've solved the legal part of the problem.

So the porting company actually HAS the source?

*facedesk* I'm done... its like trying to talk to a brick wall.

http://i.imgur.com/GJrT7Yh.gif

[ps47.3dfx]

no. getting SS2 onto GOG and steam was a two part problem - first, the game needed to run properly on new machines, and that has been solved by NewDark. the second part was getting the rights for a re-release from star insurance, and that has been accomplished by Night Dive.

Night Dive is not a "porting" company - as mentioned, they have nothing to do with the technical part of the equation. there is no use in asking them about linux ports, or engine updates or anything similar.


also, I do tech support for a living - talking to brick (and sometimes steel, titanium, adamantium) walls is part of the job. I'm pretty much completely immune to stupidity at this point.


and yes, I'm fully aware that "legal departments is working" would translate into "we don't give a cr@p", unfortunately.

[3quarks]

so they actually "released" other people's work after obtaining the right to do so.

P.S. I'm not a brick wall. you phrase about "solving the legal problem" could be understood either way. particularly after you mentioned that it was the legal matter of getting the source from fckng EA.
P.P.S. incidentally I'm not alien to doing tech support. for like 6 yrs.
P.P.P.S. thanks for clarifying things up