System shock 2 vs The Bioshock series.

[Safavi]

So recentily I purchased all the bioshock games + DLC during the steam summer sale. I am nearly finished with bioshock 1 as I am at apollo square. I do think its a good game but compared to system shock 2 it doesnt even compare. So I wanted to have a discussion to see what you guys think is better and why. As I stated before bioshock indeed is a good game BUT I just feel system shock 2 is a whole better experiance.

[SexyPanther]

I haven't yet finished System Shock 2, but here are my limited thoughts on a direct game comparison. BioShock feels like a more accessible re-interpretation of System Shock 2's core game mechanics. The major difference is that I personally feel that BioShock catered too much to a crowd of gamers not used to hard games that require quicksaving every 20-30 seconds. Here are a few examples of what I mean:
- The hacking is present, but was made into a minigame that can always be won at any difficulty (i.e., only your time is a factor, and there are no "dead ends" which would render the hacking attempt impossible soon after you began).
- There are magic abilities, but they are a required tool in BioShock, not a possible option that can be avoided entirely
- Vending machines, eating food for health, different ammo types are all present in BioShock yet they come in too great supply

Both games feature one-off moments of enjoyable discovery. Many times, a hidden area tell a mini-story, either in the way the environment's props are scattered, or through some form of direct storytelling.

BioShock was praised for a story that made a statement about standard game contrivances of blindly following orders, but people fail to realize you only had one option (combat aside) in the first place. There was no escaping the fact that no matter how much freedom and looking around you did, the only way to progress was by following a linear objective.

System Shock 2 did the same thing, but it had the guts to give you an objective but not tell you how or where you needed to go to do it. There's a sense of urgency in System Shock 2, perhaps because enemies were a constant threat.

I enjoyed BioShock, and am continuing to enjoy System Shock 2. However, BioShock, as great as it is, encorporates a few modern game norms that I find irksome: Too much ammo and health, too little challenge, options for combat that don't make a difference (using the right ammo against the right foe in System Shock 2 is necessary, not an alternative), and patched in content after-the-fact that is stamped "DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT" on in-game vending machines.

Lastly, System Shock 2 is a rare game in that limited inventory space for weapons is actually a good thing.

[Safavi]

I totally agree. Bioshock is a good game even if some system shock fans dislike it. Bioshock is indeed a far more streamlined and consolized experiance. Not to say games built for the console are bad as there are plenty of really good console games such as silent hill 2.

On its own bioshock does stand out as a incredibley unique and intelligent FPS compared to most AAA FPS we get. Im now just at the final level of the game. My first main issue is the combat. While I really do like the crafting, weapon upgrade stations and alternate ammo supply enemies are so bullet spongey. As they can shrug off shots to the head and sometimes an entire clip of shotgun shells. Not to mention the weapons dont feel very satisfying to use. While the limited ammo is intresting early on in the game you get alot of ammo and health towards the end. The big daddies are really easy once you figure out the grenade luancher is the easiest way to kill them.

Its good and all but comes off as somewhat a shallow.

[a531]

I've played them all, but have played through SS2 more than the others. Mods also bring SS2 uptodate, somewhat.

[Crash Bandicoom]

I like the mechanics in SS2 more. Bioshock didn't have as much depth to the gameplay, but I kind of found the story a bit more interesting (bioshock 1).

[MrMuffinz]

Personally I judge some games (it depends) on how "warm" they feel to me.

Something plain looking and of the same palette the whole game is what I describe as "cold".
It feels boring and lifeless, and I generally can't play it very long.

If a game feels immersive and filled with life (not just physically, but mentally too), it will capture my attention for hours and I will be determined for more.

In this case, BioShock, for me, is the "warm" game.
I get a warm feeling playing it and can play it for quite some time before getting bored because the environment was designed very, very well and has a nice atmosphere to accompany it.

System Shock 2 is fun, and clearly has some advances, but damn, it's a cold and hot relationship.
I always seem to be wanting to play the game but the other side of me screaming "IT'S GOING TO BE BORNING, PLAY SOMETHING MORE EXCITING" usually wins.

In-between each games, I didn't much care for the gameplay in System Shock 2.
I'm sure a Psi build is really fun and interesting, but shooting endlessly spawning monsters that all look the same with a huge hitbox isn't my idea of fun.

The story and the atmosphere is what draws me in.
I know the whole story, but I am always begging myself to go back and relive it.

And yes, BioShock felt a lot more 'accessible', and that's never been a bad thing (unless taken overboard).
It's like saying iD Software are sellouts for making the very first version of Quake playable with wsad because the keypad is too hard.

Anything I didn't address (like how I said the environment was good in BioShock and didn't say anything about System Shock 2) I answer with a "OK or Mediocre".

I didn't think System Shock 2's Level design was very good.

[BZPlasma]

I've played both System Shock 2 and the Bioshock games and I find that SS2 is more complex with its gameplay mechanics and customizations, in a good way, whereas Bioshock felt way more simplified to me. There is also a survival element in SS2 that makes you want to search every nook and corner for items. It gives me a sort of satisfaction when I search hidden corners and get rewarded with a small stash of goodies. I also love having an inventory in SS2. I hated the fact that consumable items were immediately used on pickup in Bioshock. In SS2, I could collect as many consumables as my inventory would allow and save them until I needed them. Plus, Shodan has to be one of the greatest villians in existance. SS2 also looks really nice when you mod it.

[Safavi]

Originally posted by MrMuffinz:

Personally I judge some games (it depends) on how "warm" they feel to me.

Something plain looking and of the same palette the whole game is what I describe as "cold".
It feels boring and lifeless, and I generally can't play it very long.

If a game feels immersive and filled with life (not just physically, but mentally too), it will capture my attention for hours and I will be determined for more.

In this case, BioShock, for me, is the "warm" game.
I get a warm feeling playing it and can play it for quite some time before getting bored because the environment was designed very, very well and has a nice atmosphere to accompany it.

System Shock 2 is fun, and clearly has some advances, but damn, it's a cold and hot relationship.
I always seem to be wanting to play the game but the other side of me screaming "IT'S GOING TO BE BORNING, PLAY SOMETHING MORE EXCITING" usually wins.

In-between each games, I didn't much care for the gameplay in System Shock 2.
I'm sure a Psi build is really fun and interesting, but shooting endlessly spawning monsters that all look the same with a huge hitbox isn't my idea of fun.

The story and the atmosphere is what draws me in.
I know the whole story, but I am always begging myself to go back and relive it.

And yes, BioShock felt a lot more 'accessible', and that's never been a bad thing (unless taken overboard).
It's like saying iD Software are sellouts for making the very first version of Quake playable with wsad because the keypad is too hard.

Anything I didn't address (like how I said the environment was good in BioShock and didn't say anything about System Shock 2) I answer with a "OK or Mediocre".

I didn't think System Shock 2's Level design was very good.

Well I felt the exact opposite to be honest. Bioshock felt very lifeless and it didnt feel very challenging.

[sallaD]

Originally posted by MrMuffinz:

Personally I judge some games (it depends) on how "warm" they feel to me.

Something plain looking and of the same palette the whole game is what I describe as "cold".
It feels boring and lifeless, and I generally can't play it very long.

If a game feels immersive and filled with life (not just physically, but mentally too), it will capture my attention for hours and I will be determined for more.

In this case, BioShock, for me, is the "warm" game.
I get a warm feeling playing it and can play it for quite some time before getting bored because the environment was designed very, very well and has a nice atmosphere to accompany it.

System Shock 2 is fun, and clearly has some advances, but damn, it's a cold and hot relationship.
I always seem to be wanting to play the game but the other side of me screaming "IT'S GOING TO BE BORNING, PLAY SOMETHING MORE EXCITING" usually wins.

In-between each games, I didn't much care for the gameplay in System Shock 2.
I'm sure a Psi build is really fun and interesting, but shooting endlessly spawning monsters that all look the same with a huge hitbox isn't my idea of fun.

The story and the atmosphere is what draws me in.
I know the whole story, but I am always begging myself to go back and relive it.

And yes, BioShock felt a lot more 'accessible', and that's never been a bad thing (unless taken overboard).
It's like saying iD Software are sellouts for making the very first version of Quake playable with wsad because the keypad is too hard.

Anything I didn't address (like how I said the environment was good in BioShock and didn't say anything about System Shock 2) I answer with a "OK or Mediocre".

I didn't think System Shock 2's Level design was very good.

SS2 is SUPPOSED to feel lifeless.

You are stranded onboard a space ship 67 trillion miles away from earth, every single escape pod is either jettisoned or damaged beyond repair.

99.9% of the crew is either dead or mutated into horrific abominations literally begging you to put them out of their misery, and the other .1% want nothing to do with you because of your cybernetics.

And the only thing that you can call a friend is likely going to just have you killed once you have outlived your usefulness.

You are alone.

Nothing and nobody can help you now.

[Safavi]

Originally posted by MARKED ONE, WHAT THE HEEELLLLL?!:

Originally posted by MrMuffinz:

Personally I judge some games (it depends) on how "warm" they feel to me.

Something plain looking and of the same palette the whole game is what I describe as "cold".
It feels boring and lifeless, and I generally can't play it very long.

If a game feels immersive and filled with life (not just physically, but mentally too), it will capture my attention for hours and I will be determined for more.

In this case, BioShock, for me, is the "warm" game.
I get a warm feeling playing it and can play it for quite some time before getting bored because the environment was designed very, very well and has a nice atmosphere to accompany it.

System Shock 2 is fun, and clearly has some advances, but damn, it's a cold and hot relationship.
I always seem to be wanting to play the game but the other side of me screaming "IT'S GOING TO BE BORNING, PLAY SOMETHING MORE EXCITING" usually wins.

In-between each games, I didn't much care for the gameplay in System Shock 2.
I'm sure a Psi build is really fun and interesting, but shooting endlessly spawning monsters that all look the same with a huge hitbox isn't my idea of fun.

The story and the atmosphere is what draws me in.
I know the whole story, but I am always begging myself to go back and relive it.

And yes, BioShock felt a lot more 'accessible', and that's never been a bad thing (unless taken overboard).
It's like saying iD Software are sellouts for making the very first version of Quake playable with wsad because the keypad is too hard.

Anything I didn't address (like how I said the environment was good in BioShock and didn't say anything about System Shock 2) I answer with a "OK or Mediocre".

I didn't think System Shock 2's Level design was very good.

SS2 is SUPPOSED to feel lifeless.

You are stranded onboard a space ship 72 trillion miles away from earth, every single escape pod is either jettisoned or damaged beyond repair.

99.9% of the crew is either dead or mutated into horrific abominations literally begging you to put them out of your misery, and the other .1% want nothing to do with you because of your cybernetics.

And the only thing that you can call a friend is likely going to just have you killed once you have outlived your usefulness.

You are alone.

Nothing and nobody can help you now.

I couldnt have said it better myself. System shock 2 is true survival horror. Bioshock fails at horror. I have to say I just started bioshock 2 and I havent gotten too far but I can tell you I like it more than the original.

[SexyPanther]

Wow, that is so obvious, and so true, yet I never considered it. System Shock 2 is survival horror whereas BioShock is more action adventure. I'm enjoying this thread. It's rare to find a topic where everyone has valid points.

In terms of BioShock giving someone a "warm" feeling, I kind of understand where the person was coming from. To me, BioShock's levels (particularly the visuals, theme, and general asthetics) give the game atmosphere. This is largely in constrast to System Shock 2, where the game mechanics and premise give the game atmosphere.

[Lead Poisoning]

Originally posted by marine565:

So recentily I purchased all the bioshock games + DLC during the steam summer sale. I am nearly finished with bioshock 1 as I am at apollo square. I do think its a good game but compared to system shock 2 it doesnt even compare. So I wanted to have a discussion to see what you guys think is better and why. As I stated before bioshock indeed is a good game BUT I just feel system shock 2 is a whole better experiance.

I agree, system shock 2 is way better than the bioshock games. Unless you care more about graphics than gameplay, or are really into steampunky stuff.

[Safavi]

I feel bioshocks downfall in terms of gameplay is it wasnt here nor there. It wasnt a fpsrpg nor was it a straight up FPS.

[a531]

Out of all the Bioshocks, I liked BS1 as it was a grittier atmosphere, didn't really like the ending though.

System Shock 2 was better,imo,even though a 1999 game. I even played some System Shock 1 with DosBox but it was difficult with the archaic controls and graphics.

[Safavi]

In the words of yathzee "playing system shock 1 was like trying to fly a helicopter witha commodore 64 on your head." Anyway I also wanted to point out that system shock 2 gameplay was superior to bioshocks as it functioned alot better.

[oldwrld]

Bioshock was fun as a passing fancy. System shock 1 and 2 will forever be remembered by me as detailed beyond measure compared to bioshocks simplistic combat and upgrade system.