We NEED Vertical Thrusters - Controls and Movement need ALOT of work

[Mangopat]

I've spent all of an hour trying for the life of me to figure out how to smoothly fly the truck and it's pretty bad. Coming from hundreds of hours space trucking in ED, and SC, I've come to expect a somewhat comparable flight experience. Needless to say, I don't want to spend any more time with a system that lacks the depth of space flight.

First off, we don't have access to any vertical thrusters. It would have made adjusting height much easier than tilting up and down like a plane. That being said, space bar to move forward? Make SPACE and CTRL for your vertical thrusters. W and S for forward and backward. Mouse to pitch and yaw or A and D for yaw is also fine.

Something as simple as controlling your height makes it imperative for a majority of the tasks you're expecting players to do. i.e. docking with space ports, lining up at jump gates, or even dropping off cargo at bays.

I found myself smacking the top of the truck into the cargo dump area or into other npc's more than I care to admit. Lining up with the space port is a chore because you have to turn around. Thank god for the alignment camera or we'd never dock. Even debris fields are a mess to navigate and then cause me to have to get out, make repairs, check power cells, etc. - taking more time away from the main purpose of the game: space trucking, hauling, flying, w/e.

Without the ability to move on that vertical axis, there's almost no point to support HOTAS setups because these controls have been so simplified.

Also, make it so that we can have a cruise control or set some sort of speed. I'm assuming there will be control to adjust hotkeys in the release of the full game, but for the demo, not being able to change anything - save for inverted pitch controls - is a bit of an L.

As a result of the above, the rest of the controls feel out of place and wonky. "Turning" right and left end up rolling the ship, which leaves the actual roll control just for correcting your initial turn.

This game could be SO good if some simple changes were made to the way we interact with our ship.

TLDR;
If you wan't us to abide by principles of flying in space, give us the proper controls to do so.

[Middy]

SilverDiamond eredeti hozzászólása:

What people asking for is easy mode. This game is already normal, not hard. However, people want their hands held. Vertical thrust, where would you even PUT it? Answer me that. Make a screen shot of the truck in-game(WITH trailer, that does NOT have thrusters), and put in in photoshop, and now place the thrusters where you want "vertical thrust". Will be waiting for the link...

No, what they want is fun. Everything you said is irrelevant.

[SilverDiamond]

lnomsim eredeti hozzászólása:

SilverDiamond eredeti hozzászólása:

What people asking for is easy mode. This game is already normal, not hard. However, people want their hands held. Vertical thrust, where would you even PUT it? Answer me that. Make a screen shot of the truck in-game(WITH trailer, that does NOT have thrusters), and put in in photoshop, and now place the thrusters where you want "vertical thrust". Will be waiting for the link...

Hey, I have a fun idea for you:
Try to play Euro Truck simulator without steering.

The truck already has vertical thrusters to pitch.
And horizontal thrusters to yaw and roll.

So play Star Trucker without those side thrusters. Dude, you heavily misunderstand the "vertical thrust" issue.

[SilverDiamond]

Middy eredeti hozzászólása:

SilverDiamond eredeti hozzászólása:

What people asking for is easy mode. This game is already normal, not hard. However, people want their hands held. Vertical thrust, where would you even PUT it? Answer me that. Make a screen shot of the truck in-game(WITH trailer, that does NOT have thrusters), and put in in photoshop, and now place the thrusters where you want "vertical thrust". Will be waiting for the link...

No, what they want is fun. Everything you said is irrelevant.

Saw another comment, and agree with it. Maybe this game is NOT FOR THEM? A single person can NOT like ALL genres. FPS person might not like strategy, because they are too difficult to understand. RTS(Real Time Strategy) guy might not like simulators(airplane, car, whatever). This game is fine as it is. People said it needs vertical thrusters. For WHAT, exactly? Mangopat also missed the point that trailer HAS NO THRUSTERS. It does NOT HAVE ENGINES. If it had - it would be on the CAB to provide MORE energy to THAT.

So NO. If you put vertical thrusters on the CAB, it will rotate AROUND the trailer, making a clock hand...

And let me REPEAT the question, that you did NOT anwser.

Where would the vertical thrust GO on the cab? Please, show me the screenshot of the truck, and point where it goes. I'm WAITING.

[Malibloo]

lnomsim eredeti hozzászólása:

1-It's a space game, in a 3D environment. So being able to move in 3D is a normal expectation to have.

See, that's where you're wrong. It's a trucker game. In a 3D space environment. A truck wouldn't normally move laterally, so a space truck wouldn't be able to move vertically either.
And let me emphasize this once more. This is a trucker game through and through, in space. It's not about mobility, it's about difficult sluggish movement.
If you don't like this, then this game is not meant for you. Stop trying to change the devs' vision and just move on.

lnomsim eredeti hozzászólása:

2-The game requires precision manoeuvring. Honestly, without it, I wouldn't mind that much the lack of strafing, but losing 2min because I need to redo the whole procedure? Nope.

Literally the game. Precision movement is literally the point of the game. And you want to remove that.
And so what if it's 3D? In any TS you have a much tighter environment. In this world so far you do not, because, you guessed it, you can move in all 3 dimensions.
Movement complexity is balanced with open spaces. You're trying to make the game unbalanced.

lnomsim eredeti hozzászólása:

Your argument of "making the game too easy" is the same as justifying bullet sponge enemies in shooter games.

No, it does not, and I've properly supported why several times now, read back. I'm not repeating myself for the third time.

lnomsim eredeti hozzászólása:

Making things tedious is not synonymous with difficulty.

Correct! It's not. It's what adds to the fun. In this type of game anyway. It's about getting good at tedious things, just like driving IRL.

lnomsim eredeti hozzászólása:

Docking in this game is not "hard", it is quite generous in the room it gives you before allowing you to dock.
It's tedious because you have to move meters away to correct a small mistake.

Now you get it! Play more, get better at it, and you won't make small mistakes anymore.
This is literally the difficulty curve of the game. And it's a ridiculously easy one at that.

Mangopat eredeti hozzászólása:

To go and say you design games and show so much hostility to suggestions on a discussion form says a lot. God save us if a player ever has a complaint or a suggestion for a game you're making that messes/modifies your end product and vision.

No, me saying that is to point out that there's a ridiculous amount of people on here that think they can make games and think it's easy. And when they throw out ridiculous ideas like this one, it makes it all the more obvious that they have no idea what repercussions their suggested changes have.
Backseat game designers are absolutely some of the dumbest and worst people out there. If they got their right every time there'd be hundreds of games out there sterilized from fun and wouldn't be remotely as successful.

Mangopat eredeti hozzászólása:

And then to state that someone with constructive criticism is being selfish? Sorry, I think you're getting a little off base here.

You think it's constructive, I have pointed out time and again that your changes will be destructive. This is not the game you think it is, stop trying to make it that.
And yes, you're literally advocating for changes of the game so you can enjoy it more. That's the definition of selfish.

Mangopat eredeti hozzászólása:

The cargo is on top of a trailer. The cab is mag locked to the trailer, the cargo mag locked to the trailer. A vertical thruster or multiple thrusters on the bottom of the trailer. Suspend reality for a second because we're already playing a sci-fi game - smaller thrusters. Doesn't have to be as big as the main propulsion ones pushing the truck forward. The thrusters on the bottom of the trailer and the cab push and pull at the same time creating lift or descent. How you think that rotates the cargo around the trailer is beyond me.

Sorry, but this immediately shows how shortsighted you are. Trailers have thrusters? Then how do you fuel those? Everything is mag locked, there's no cables. The point is that it's just a box that you move, nothing more, nothing less. We're in space capitalism where the cargo is secure, but we're not going to spend additional money on making it easier for the rookie drivers. Just learn to drive, or let the drivers who know what they're doing take over, that's how it'd work.
Adding thrusters to the trailers makes absolutely zero sense in a multitude of ways. Haven't heard a good argument for it.

Mangopat eredeti hozzászólása:

Not sure how you think removing 2 degrees of freedom from the player's control - a whole separate axis to manage - makes the game "easier".

You literally just have to do the same thing, but twice. That's all there's to it. Handles 2 seperate axes while driving in an incredibly spacious place. Normal trucks also have this limitation in a single axis, it doesn't move sideways. Surely this can't be hard to understand.

Mangopat eredeti hozzászólása:

You actively choosing to leave Flight Assist on is what makes the game easy. Don't tell me that giving the player the only option of pitching up and down is how we are MEANT to control height.

If you're already doing this, and you have easy mode on, then why this complaint at all?
Is it that you want vertical and lateral control when assist mode is off? Because again. This is a trucker game, not a space game. In actual space you'd need to counterthrust every movement, which would be neigh impossible with actual dead weight and magnets. It's not real space. You don't need vertical or lateral movement. I just don't understand why you can't fathom this.

Mangopat eredeti hozzászólása:

Imagine for a second you're hauling a fragile load. You are en-route to the drop off and decide you want to take a little shortcut. Uh oh, debris comes flying your way. Not a problem, I'll just pitch up or down out of the way and - oop, my crate full of glasswear got smacked to all hell and I just wasted all my time. Oh well, the fun is yet to come. I get to BACK INTO MY PARKING SPOT!

Don't drive offroad? Basic trucking skills.
Also, the rest is literally the game. Why are you trying to style on the game now?
The more you talk, the more I hear someone talking about how they don't like this type of game. That's fine. Move on. Stop trying to change it into something that other people won't like.

Mangopat eredeti hozzászólása:

And yet again, are we saying the challenge is in the movement, or in the backing up into spaces?

Backing up into spaces is movement. What are you on about?

Mangopat eredeti hozzászólása:

It seems to me that you think it is impossible to have a challenging experience navigating densely packed fields of debris, or narrowly avoiding other truckers or those little space cars by use of vertical thrust. You'd still have to pay attention regardless and manage an entirely different axis.

It seems to me that you think that this shouldn't be a trucker game. Trucks are slow, sluggish, and hard to control. You're advocating for maneuvering a speedy quad through a minefield.

Mangopat eredeti hozzászólása:

What are we going to look at? Space? - Uhh. Yeah, we're literally surrounded by nothing but space. What do we gain from not having the freedom of movement we desire? Oh, instead we get to look at the nice dot crosshair in the center that that makes alignment a joke. Or we could think about how the game can fundamentally adapt over time and make changes that would require move advanced maneuvers.

What is this argument even? You're asking for additional maneuverability in empty space, why?
And a complaint about the crosshair? Really? What's next, a complaint that you can have a view from outside of the vehicle? Why are you even here?

[Zedd]

Happy to see the steam forum is descending into its usual shouting match where the loudest voices prevail :)

This is quite an importrant topic though, so let us discuss like civilised people here.

Wether you want full elite-style lateral and vertical movement or not, currently it is the actual game's intention that you drag and pull the cargo, like a truck or boat. (In fact boat is a better analogy here in space)
So let us first investigate HOW you'd add the lateral movement.

SilverDiamond really does have a point- where are you putting the thrusters?

So as I suggested elsewhere, you need thrusters on the ass-end of your container stack. So one option is the ability to purchase a "caboose" that goes on the end, that has thrusters on there. You'd now have full lateral control, but you'd lose time attaching and detaching it, and maybe a penalty to top speed and fuel use or something.

Though another idea might be, the addition of a "docking UI" where your centre-of-mass gets shifted to the very end of the container (the bit you'd want moving up and down during docking) and your computer works out on its own where the cab needs to shift to, to push that ass-end in the desired direction.
It could be a toggle button that enables this at any time, shifting your COM to the back end. This would also mean that, if you press this without a load, you'd actually get full proper lateral movement.
I find this to be a very good compromise between the two camps. Don't want laterals?
Don't push the button. Need help docking? You get simulated lateral at no compromise to the game's model. Thoughts?

[Malibloo]

Zedd eredeti hozzászólása:

I find this to be a very good compromise between the two camps. Don't want laterals?
Don't push the button. Need help docking? You get simulated lateral at no compromise to the game's model. Thoughts?

The only thing I got out of this post is:
Don't want to shoot people in this FPS? Just press this button to kill everyone around you.
The movement is the gameplay. There's nothing wrong with it, it's explicitly the way it is for a reason, it doesn't need changing.

And putting thrusters on trailers still makes no sense. What would you think would happen sooner? Putting thrusters on trailers, or finding better drivers that don't need them?

Oh and to make this shouting match even more fun, let's be clear, people aren't just asking for vertical movement, they're asking for lateral as well.


Anyone answer me this. What's left of the game after you get all this additional movement? What fun remains? Just getting from A to B? Looking at pretty space? Seeing a number go up?
I'm waiting for legitimate arguments, but so far people are just arguing for the sake of arguing because they think they're right.

[Zedd]

Malibloo, I'm perfectly happy without vertical/lateral thrusters thanks.

But I don't want a caboose, whereas I could easily ignore the dock assist autopilot thing.

Only downside for me is, whatever time the programmers spend on implementing some form of this to please the people in this post, they're not spending on adding cool things and finishing the game I want to play right now :D

I'm just pursuing, for sake of argument, IF something gets done, how'd they do it.
(If I were a bit ruder and less inclined to discuss options, I'd say, go play elite, get yourself an Anaconda, and put the containers inside)

[Sven777b]

I didnt read the whole thread but its funny to see ppl missing "vertical" thrusters. Well - its the space... there is no up & down. Just roll the truck 90° and use the side thrusters to get "up & down". Maybe Its because I played sims like empyrion & space engineer where I often decide to get rid of unnecessary thrusters to reduce weight. I didnt really miss the vertical thrusters - sometimes its good to keep it simple - especially while using a gamecontroller. It can be difficult to assign 6 rotation directions , 6 movement directions and 4 viewpoint directions to 2 sticks , 2 analog triggers and 8+2 buttons (xbox). Additional to the functions you also need for fast access on the controller.

[Malibloo]

Sven777b eredeti hozzászólása:

I didnt read the whole thread but its funny to see ppl missing "vertical" thrusters. Well - its the space... there is no up & down. Just roll the truck 90° and use the side thrusters to get "up & down".

There's no vertical or lateral thrusters. You just rotate your cab and move it forwards and backwards, and you can roll for the sake of having upright things upright.

[Sven777b]

Oh you are right - mixed it with the space suit movement. But doesnt matter - in that case just tilt the truck up 90°. As I said - I´m used to the lack of thrusters. ;)

[Max Attax]

100++++ Defo we need that & I also found out when going on EVA when the Ship/Truck at speed there is no relative velocity so soon you exit the airlock you stop on the spot and the Ship keeps going

[Lieutenant Dan]

Max Attax eredeti hozzászólása:

100++++ Defo we need that & I also found out when going on EVA when the Ship/Truck at speed there is no relative velocity so soon you exit the airlock you stop on the spot and the Ship keeps going

you wouldn't accelerate at the speed of your thrusting truck when exiting, it would leave you behind, because physics.

[SilverDiamond]

Pickleman eredeti hozzászólása:

Max Attax eredeti hozzászólása:

100++++ Defo we need that & I also found out when going on EVA when the Ship/Truck at speed there is no relative velocity so soon you exit the airlock you stop on the spot and the Ship keeps going

you wouldn't accelerate at the speed of your thrusting truck when exiting, it would leave you behind, because physics.

You don't understand the problem. Truck isn't ACCELERATING, you are LEFT BEHIND. Even if truck IS accelerating, which it SHOULDN'T, because you are not in the SEAT, you should be moving with the speed of the TRUCK, when you EXIT. Whatever acceleration or deceleration it has shouldn't leave you BEHIND.

[Mangopat]

Story Time again kids!

Malibloo eredeti hozzászólása:

If you don't like this, then this game is not meant for you. Stop trying to change the devs' vision and just move on.

Bold of you to assume you KNOW the dev's vision clearer than anyone else. Next you're going to tell us you are actually one of the devs for the game? You've taken a look at a demonstration they released to the public, compared it with a few trailers, and made a decision on what the game should be.. Guess what? Everyone else here has as well. It is up for interpretation and you of all people should know that game design is a fluid process that requires iteration and change. I am hard-pressed to believe that adding another axis to movement fundamentally destroys the game. Maybe you disagree, but plenty others here agree with me too.

Malibloo eredeti hozzászólása:

Correct! It's not. It's what adds to the fun. In this type of game anyway. It's about getting good at tedious things, just like driving IRL.

And just like flying and maneuvering spacecraft as well. No one starts an expert at either and as we discussed, tedious does not add fun or enjoyment to a game. We're saying the same thing on different sides of the coin. It is the movement that makes the game fun. What is so bad about getting extra movement/ways to interact with your vehicle? It doesn't make it any easier than the system we have now. Never have I heard the opinion that driving a truck is harder than flying a spacecraft. And then you'll say: "Well it is a truck".. Yeah, in space.

This is sort of the defining line between two types of audiences I'm seeing here. The people who have come from canonically established space sims where they play as space truckers, and the crowd coming from Euro/American Truck Sim who were looking for a space DLC.

Malibloo eredeti hozzászólása:

Backseat game designers are absolutely some of the dumbest and worst people out there.

And yet again, calling people dumb and being the worst doesn't help prove a point or make an argument any more compelling. You lack the ability to understand that people have opinions and are entitled to them. Feedback is the number 1 tool a dev can have and hey, crazy idea: devs DON'T have to listen to feedback. At the end of the day, they still have creative control over everything. That doesn't always mean the player base is going to be happy with the decisions they made at the end of the day.

Malibloo eredeti hozzászólása:

Don't drive offroad? Basic trucking skills.
Also, the rest is literally the game. Why are you trying to style on the game now?
The more you talk, the more I hear someone talking about how they don't like this type of game. That's fine. Move on. Stop trying to change it into something that other people won't like.

"Offroad" - we're in space. Not roads. The more I hear you talk, the more it confirms that you just want dedicated highways in space. You want to move from point A to B with "road" signs telling you every which way to go. Another thing, not ever gate you get to has a connecting junction or "highway" to get there. You have to go off the beaten path and through empty, debris-filled dark to bridge that gap. So what, the devs put in debris fields and other hazards to just straight up avoid? Wasted artifacts floating around that wont ever see the light of day? What is the repair mechanic used for then? We're gonna hit into things regardless. And if someone wants to take a shortcut in what is depicted as an open-space game, who are you to say they should abide by your principles of "free" movement?

Malibloo eredeti hozzászólása:

And putting thrusters on trailers still makes no sense. What would you think would happen sooner? Putting thrusters on trailers, or finding better drivers that don't need them?

Hey, here's a fun little thing I found while driving today.
https://imgur.com/Bu7SyOX

Notice how the Trailer has no cargo container on it? See all those little wheels at the bottom? Now imagine if they were replaced with thrusters instead. To the comment asking how we would fuel these - again suspend disbelief in a sci-fi setting and imagine something as simple as fuel lines running down the underside of the trailer. However you want to imagine that, do as you please.

Regardless of all that, this was one suggestion I made to incorporate vertical thrusters while maintaining the truck aesthetic. If you don't like it, that's fine. You don't have to. It was a suggestion, nothing more, nothing less. All I've heard from the opposite side is how dumb of an idea it is, and that it wouldn't work.. Way to add to the conversation and give alternatives guys, keep it up!

Malibloo eredeti hozzászólása:

Anyone answer me this. What's left of the game after you get all this additional movement? What fun remains? Just getting from A to B? Looking at pretty space? Seeing a number go up?
I'm waiting for legitimate arguments, but so far people are just arguing for the sake of arguing because they think they're right.

Very few people have descended into argument, you're among the minority of those who have. You constantly tell people they're dumb and wrong and use your self-proclamation as a game designer as some weird internet badge of authority.

You have clearly stated in previous responses that the fun of the game is in the movement itself. So I ask again, why is giving more movement to the player a bad thing? If you are trying to say that preserving the current state of movement is what is important to you, and driving a space truck like an earthly-truck then fine. That's your opinion, your take, your feelings towards the game - NOT FACT.

Sven777b eredeti hozzászólása:

Just roll the truck 90° and use the side thrusters to get "up & down".

Hi Sven! I like you, you're objective. This still wouldn't work with the current system we have since the cargo pivots. Rotating 90° and using the side thrusters would only yaw the vehicle on it's new axis, the cargo would still tilt downward. What I'm proposing is moving the cab and cargo as one cohesive unit.

At this point, I think I've said all I can. We've had some who disagree, most who do. At the end of the day, I don't care what the devs decide, as someone pointed out earlier, the space sim/space truckers will be the ones left playing the game as we're there for the aesthetic and the fun of hauling cargo. I've always seen the space trucking in the space sim genre as a nice parallel to the euro truck sim crowd, but clearly there is a dividing line in how we should operate our vehicle. One side would like to see an addition, the other would like to see preservation of games they are coming from.

An argument can even be made that this is a hybrid of the two to bridge the gap, but that doesn't mean that suggestions and additions to the game can't be made.

[SilverDiamond]

Bruh, you are digging yourself in...

Number 1.

""Offroad" - we're in space. Not roads. The more I hear you talk, the more it confirms that you just want dedicated highways in space. "

Offroad is just a TERM for safe, and unsafe "driving space".

A trucker CAN drive offroad. But he will get stuck, damage truck or load, etc... Same here. Offroad means an area that is not made for safe movement. There is no police, no fuel stops, nobody to call should you encounter a problem. It's not about dedicated highways. It's about "roads" being maintained enough for safe EVERYDAY use. Trucker can use any road, even at the risk of traffic james, as long as he, his truck and his CARGO is delivered IN TIME, and UNDAMAGED. I mean, it IS SPACE, there are possible millions of fast routes, however, not ALL of them will be SAFE for "driving".



Number 2.

"Hey, here's a fun little thing I found while driving today.
https://imgur.com/Bu7SyOX "



Wheels. That's your first argument where this is just WRONG. Wheels are NEEDED to let a TRUCK PULL the trailer. Imagine trailer withOUT wheels. Yeah, not much usage, lot's of wear, bot the trailer, and trucks gearbox.

Now, let's go to space. There is no FRICTION... You don't NEED wheels there. Wheels on OUR, EARTH trailers are NECESSITY. Then, we are talking THRUSTERS. Those are POWERED AXLES. Apart from one specific RUSSIAN OFFROAD truck
https://youtu.be/c2FC-AJ-P_Y?feature=shared
See how there is a DRIVESHAFT, going back to the rear wheels of the TRAILER? This thing was made SPECIFICALLY for HARD OFFROAD. Fuel economy is BAD on this thing, SPEED is bad, COMFORT is bad.

Now, what do companies require of truck and driver? Be CHEAP, bring MONEY. SPEED and ECONOMY is the name of the game. Thrusters on the trailer will take a lot of MONEY to be MADE, and INSTALLED on THOU... No, not thousands. This is space, were are talking galaxies here. BILLIONS of trailers. They will need to be fixed.

As someone else said, what will companies do? Cater to a bad trucker, or just fire you, and hire someone, who doesn't mind?