Why did combat peak at Yakuza 0?

[melon]

This is a 100% genuine question and something which has sincerely baffled me for a while. I know that people don't play these games for pristine action combat. Traditionally the combat is mostly just a time waster in between heat moves, which are its strong point for being entertaining the first few times, though for some reason the heat generation and opportunity for variety are pretty low in this game too. I just don't understand why they improved it so much for 0 and then abandoned those improvements.

Yakuza 0 was my first Yakuza game and the combat was actually pretty good. It feels like you're in control, just about everything can be reasonably dodged, and the game is built around that by giving you bonuses for flawless defeats and super strong enemies that destroy you if they land even one or two hits. The combat styles were engaging and interesting to expand and master, which paid off because many enemies hit pretty hard outside of rare special attacks. Since then, I have played several more Yakuza games and none of that was there. The character does not want to turn to face the enemy or dodge on command, attacks are random and abrupt in a way that is not fun to try to counter or avoid, they ignore hits and end your combos whenever they feel like it and often immediately punish your successful grabs by breaking out of them instantly and tossing you on the ground, which like other knockdowns has an annoying slow animation.

Obviously, I didn't rely on games released before 0 having combat as good as its was, but then I tried 6, and Judgment, and now this, and they were all disappointing in comparison. Not only does it feel mindless relative to 0, but they took out entire whole features like the encounter grading bonuses and never put them back in. Is there any explanation? Did people hate 0's for some reason? Did it have low clear percentages because people found it too hard?

I still like most of what makes up the games in the series, but I wonder if I should keep getting my hopes up for good combat. Sincerely interested if there's any particular reason for this. Anybody know?

[Rocky McRockerson]

Originally posted by Ghasto:

Cope.
dragon engine combat has been better than the old style for as long as it has existed. i'm saying this as a someone who's been playing these games since 2006.

Eh, I'd argue 6 and Kiwami 2 had problems that made it worse.

[Titan]

Originally posted by Ghasto:

Cope.
dragon engine combat has been better than the old style for as long as it has existed. i'm saying this as a someone who's been playing these games since 2006.

Now that's not true. It's been better since Judgment released. Yakuza 6 was extremely rough and is pretty close to being the worst combat in the series (though Ishin Kiwami definitely takes the top spot as number 1 worst).

[uuuhdavid]

stares at lost judgment

[็]

Originally posted by Titan:

Originally posted by Ghasto:

Cope.
dragon engine combat has been better than the old style for as long as it has existed. i'm saying this as a someone who's been playing these games since 2006.

Now that's not true. It's been better since Judgment released. Yakuza 6 was extremely rough and is pretty close to being the worst combat in the series (though Ishin Kiwami definitely takes the top spot as number 1 worst).

Out of curiosity, why do you think that Like A Dragon: Ishin has worse combat than Yakuza 6? The combat in the former is definitely flawed, but personally, I don't really recall anything so egregious about the combat in the Ishin remake that would make it worse than 3 and 6 for me.

[Titan]

Originally posted by ็:

Originally posted by Titan:

Now that's not true. It's been better since Judgment released. Yakuza 6 was extremely rough and is pretty close to being the worst combat in the series (though Ishin Kiwami definitely takes the top spot as number 1 worst).

Out of curiosity, why do you think that Like A Dragon: Ishin has worse combat than Yakuza 6? The combat in the former is definitely flawed, but personally, I don't really recall anything so egregious about the combat in the Ishin remake that would make it worse than 3 and 6 for me.

A number of things that add up to a generally terrible combat experience. The styles do not flow well together and Wild Dancer is so much more versatile and powerful than the rest that it's almost comical. Bosses are next to impossible to knock down a lot of the time outside of a tiny handful of viable strategies and have absurd super armour. A lot of enemies and bosses turn around instantly when being hit in the back, making back hit combos almost entirely pointless. Quickstep cancels being style specific (where in the original ishin it was a universal move) is a terrible change.

In general it is just slow and clunky, with a lot of questionable changes and lacks any kind of redeeming qualities at all. Yakuza 6 is a much more enjoyable game by comparison (and I don't know why you would mention Yakuza 3 either, Yakuza 3 is light years ahead of both of these games).

[Legato Bluesummers]

In Ishin they made guns OP and then apparently further nerfed the unarmed style. I stupidly maxed out unarmed thinking it would comparable but it's not at all late game. It's basically worthless. The tiger drop does insignificant damage. The single sword style is the powerhouse and then you have dancer style which is also way OP especially against bosses. It's just poorly balanced at all stages of the game. The gun only style is just not very fun to use imo. It's got some cool moves but I never really used it because until you unlock the moves, it's just basically awkward and tanky. You get 4 styles but late game when you have to grind against health sponges, you really only have one style with a few moves that are effective. I wouldn't say the combat itself is bad, but the balancing of it is terrible. Truly terrible.

[moike]

Originally posted by fishnpeas:

Because Toshihiro Nagoshi, Daisuke Sato and others have now left the studio, whoever is left can't seem to make good combat.

Looks like we will have to wait for Nagoshi Studios to come up with the new game he is working on to get something good again.

They were never responsible for the combat, they were only ever producers or some script writing, and even with them barely present, we got Lost Judgment which is highhandedly the best combat system out of any RGG game, which Gaiden uses as base. You're talking hot air.

[moike]

Originally posted by Scorpion:

Originally posted by Legato Bluesummers:

I've read quite a bit about how people say RGG works, so go ahead and enlighten us.

The last product from Nagoshi is LJ, which is peak yakuza combat. Notice how much combat of Kaito files sucks? Such a downgrade from the original game. That's just Yokoyama's magic

Nagoshi was an executive director and the story was based on his script, not only was Lost Judgment directed by neither Yokoyama nor Nagoshi, but RGG Studio have dedicated teams of designers and programmers for every part of their games, including gameplay/combat, and Jun Orihara is the one listed as Battle Design Lead for many Yakuza games, including LJ.
If you think that scriptwriters and producers are responsible for combat design, then I suggest you educate yourself

[Judgment_Kazzy]

I didnt like the combat in gaiden, too many enemies made the combat chaotic, and bosses are no fun to fight, they can attack you in the middle of combos and there arent many parries or heat actions you can use in those fights.

[็]

Originally posted by Titan:

Wild Dancer is so much more versatile and powerful than the rest that it's almost comical.

Uh, what? This isn't true at all. How did you play Swordsman and Gunman? Wild Dancer is the most versatile obviously as that's what the style is designed as, but it absolutely does not eclipse Swordsman as a powerhouse style to the point of comicality. Swordsman is on the precipice of being broken when played optimally. Gunman style remains incredibly powerful and easy to cheese in this game despite the nerf to Double Shot and addition of super armor. The only truly awful style is Brawler, but even then, that is only due to its pitiful damage rather than problems with the actual style.

Bosses are next to impossible to knock down a lot of the time outside of a tiny handful of viable strategies and have absurd super armour. A lot of enemies and bosses turn around instantly when being hit in the back, making back hit combos almost entirely pointless.

Fair, but multiple Yakuza games suffer different but similar issues in regards to cheesy AI design; enemy design flaws of this nature aren't exclusive to just the Ishin remake. Yakuza 6, being the first Dragon Engine game, introduced the bounce on block mechanic, which was awful and killed the momentum of combos. People just don't think about it too much given how easy Yakuza 6 is, but it would have been a much more prominent issue if Yakuza 6 was actually challenging. Even in Gaiden, enemies are prone to input-read dodges and random hyper armor startups.

and I don't know why you would mention Yakuza 3 either, Yakuza 3 is light years ahead of both of these games

Yakuza 3 combat is awful, especially in the remaster where features are straight up broken.

[Titan]

Originally posted by ็:

Originally posted by Titan:

Wild Dancer is so much more versatile and powerful than the rest that it's almost comical.

Uh, what? This isn't true at all. How did you play Swordsman and Gunman? Wild Dancer is the most versatile obviously as that's what the style is designed as, but it absolutely does not eclipse Swordsman as a powerhouse style to the point of comicality. Swordsman is on the precipice of being broken when played optimally. Gunman style remains incredibly powerful and easy to cheese in this game despite the nerf to Double Shot and addition of super armor. The only truly awful style is Brawler, but even then, that is only due to its pitiful damage rather than problems with the actual style.

Bosses are next to impossible to knock down a lot of the time outside of a tiny handful of viable strategies and have absurd super armour. A lot of enemies and bosses turn around instantly when being hit in the back, making back hit combos almost entirely pointless.

Fair, but multiple Yakuza games suffer different but similar issues in regards to cheesy AI design; enemy design flaws of this nature aren't exclusive to just the Ishin remake. Yakuza 6, being the first Dragon Engine game, introduced the bounce on block mechanic, which was awful and killed the momentum of combos. People just don't think about it too much given how easy Yakuza 6 is, but it would have been a much more prominent issue if Yakuza 6 was actually challenging. Even in Gaiden, enemies are prone to input-read dodges and random hyper armor startups.

and I don't know why you would mention Yakuza 3 either, Yakuza 3 is light years ahead of both of these games

Yakuza 3 combat is awful, especially in the remaster where features are straight up broken.

The remaster makes things worse but Yakuza 3 combat is far from awful. It's just a straight up better version of Yakuza 2's combat.

[็]

Originally posted by Titan:

The remaster makes things worse but Yakuza 3 combat is far from awful. It's just a straight up better version of Yakuza 2's combat.

We're going to have to agree to disagree then. Even when discounting the Remastered version's issues, I was only able to tolerate Y3's combat. I didn't find it very satisfying to play.

[Nofunson]

play lost judgment OP

[Dante_Sparda796]

Nah combat peaked in Lost judgment, nagoshi's last involvement in the franchise btw.

[Gamer Mickey]

Lost Judgment's combat is miles better than Yakuza 0's. 0 has the best story though imo.