Why did combat peak at Yakuza 0?

[melon]

This is a 100% genuine question and something which has sincerely baffled me for a while. I know that people don't play these games for pristine action combat. Traditionally the combat is mostly just a time waster in between heat moves, which are its strong point for being entertaining the first few times, though for some reason the heat generation and opportunity for variety are pretty low in this game too. I just don't understand why they improved it so much for 0 and then abandoned those improvements.

Yakuza 0 was my first Yakuza game and the combat was actually pretty good. It feels like you're in control, just about everything can be reasonably dodged, and the game is built around that by giving you bonuses for flawless defeats and super strong enemies that destroy you if they land even one or two hits. The combat styles were engaging and interesting to expand and master, which paid off because many enemies hit pretty hard outside of rare special attacks. Since then, I have played several more Yakuza games and none of that was there. The character does not want to turn to face the enemy or dodge on command, attacks are random and abrupt in a way that is not fun to try to counter or avoid, they ignore hits and end your combos whenever they feel like it and often immediately punish your successful grabs by breaking out of them instantly and tossing you on the ground, which like other knockdowns has an annoying slow animation.

Obviously, I didn't rely on games released before 0 having combat as good as its was, but then I tried 6, and Judgment, and now this, and they were all disappointing in comparison. Not only does it feel mindless relative to 0, but they took out entire whole features like the encounter grading bonuses and never put them back in. Is there any explanation? Did people hate 0's for some reason? Did it have low clear percentages because people found it too hard?

I still like most of what makes up the games in the series, but I wonder if I should keep getting my hopes up for good combat. Sincerely interested if there's any particular reason for this. Anybody know?

[Titan]

Originally posted by Scorpion:

Originally posted by Titan:

Neither of these articles prove anything about any of your statements of how involved other people were throughout the different games in the franchise, they're just showing Yokoyama and Sakamoto's involvement with the recent releases. Which we already know about (and don't care because the combat in both the Kaito Files and LAD Gaiden are both extremely good and some of the better in the series).

And there's no double standard here. You are the one who made these claims to begin with, so naturally you are the one who is going to be questioned. That's just common sense.

Oh wait I notice you. You the guy who spamming skill issue under every post complaining about combat. Yeah the combat is so flawless that 3 of the top 4 most downloaded gaiden mods on nexus are combat overhaul mods LOL

Crazy how you'd somehow manage to notice me for something that I don't do lmfao. And I never claimed the combat was flawless. The combat has never been flawless in a single entry in this franchise, and I think you'll also find that combat overhaul mods are very popular for pretty much every entry in the series, not just this one.

[Rocky McRockerson]

Originally posted by Scorpion:

Originally posted by Titan:

Neither of these articles prove anything about any of your statements of how involved other people were throughout the different games in the franchise, they're just showing Yokoyama and Sakamoto's involvement with the recent releases. Which we already know about (and don't care because the combat in both the Kaito Files and LAD Gaiden are both extremely good and some of the better in the series).

And there's no double standard here. You are the one who made these claims to begin with, so naturally you are the one who is going to be questioned. That's just common sense.

Oh wait I notice you. You the guy who spamming skill issue under every post complaining about combat. Yeah the combat is so flawless that 3 of the top 4 most downloaded gaiden mods on nexus are combat overhaul mods LOL

Believe it or not, gameplay additions/changes are very popular mods.

[Scorpion]

Originally posted by Rocky McRockerson:

Originally posted by Scorpion:

Oh wait I notice you. You the guy who spamming skill issue under every post complaining about combat. Yeah the combat is so flawless that 3 of the top 4 most downloaded gaiden mods on nexus are combat overhaul mods LOL

Believe it or not, gameplay additions/changes are very popular mods.

Yes they are. However only 1 out of all top 5 (15 in total) downloaded mods for K2, JE, LJ are actually combat overhaul mod, that is style switching which is just copied from 0 and k1 style switching. Gaiden however, needs many improvements to make the combat flow better

[Rumitus]

I think it's good. Perhaps not as good as Lost Judgement but it's definitely better than 0.

[Scorpion]

Originally posted by Titan:

Originally posted by Scorpion:

Oh wait I notice you. You the guy who spamming skill issue under every post complaining about combat. Yeah the combat is so flawless that 3 of the top 4 most downloaded gaiden mods on nexus are combat overhaul mods LOL

Crazy how you'd somehow manage to notice me for something that I don't do lmfao. And I never claimed the combat was flawless. The combat has never been flawless in a single entry in this franchise, and I think you'll also find that combat overhaul mods are very popular for pretty much every entry in the series, not just this one.

About that I replied to Rocky under your post. Btw I wonder what's your opinion? Like why do you think "the combat in both the Kaito Files and LAD Gaiden are both extremely good and some of the better in the series"? Can you tell me some of the Inferior games in terms of combat in your opinion and why are these two considered better? I think Gaiden combat is fun, the movesets are pretty enjoyable, it's the lack of boss tweaking. KF on the other hand has some of the worst combat imo, especially after u finished the Yagami part, the comparison is brutal. The reused movesets is one thing, yet they still somehow nerfed them.

Bruiser
1. They messed up the combo speed, even though Kaito's light combo is 1-2 frames quicker than Kiryu's. Base speed of finish heavy, ex heavy is much slower than Kiryu's. The beautiful XXY combo in 0 and k1 becomes absolutely useless in KF
2. The new XY and XXXYY combos are designed poorly. No flow.
3. Each ex heavy except the final one gives knock down, Whoever designed this has no idea how og LJ combat stands out from the rest of yakuza games. After the first heavy landed, each heavy follow up can be easily dodged by enemies no matter goons or bosses. Remember Yagami's ex heavy combos? Crane, tiger, boxer, all of them are op as they supposed to and enjoyable with lots of style. Ex guard doesn't have any knockback skill and reguard skill
4. It's hard to give status to enemies. Stun can only be given by resolute counter. Pain can only be given by Tank running attack (seriously wth?) But the bosses in LJ can generally dodge running attacks.

Tank
1. Again pain status is always useful in yakuza games. Yet they put this on running heavy. Goons ez dodge.
2. The gap between second light and cross strike is crazy long especially when you fight against bosses. Bosses can easily dodge that. Even when hit, it can only break the guard. Because they put the guard breaking effect on the second strike. For Yagami's tiger, you can just do a XXYY combo which already has guard breaking effect, when you hold Y you can even knock down bosses, now this.
3. Grabbing is fked just like Gaiden, no need to say more.

Just sharing some thoughts hope u don't mind.

[Titan]

Originally posted by Scorpion:

Originally posted by Titan:

Crazy how you'd somehow manage to notice me for something that I don't do lmfao. And I never claimed the combat was flawless. The combat has never been flawless in a single entry in this franchise, and I think you'll also find that combat overhaul mods are very popular for pretty much every entry in the series, not just this one.

About that I replied to Rocky under your post. Btw I wonder what's your opinion? Like why do you think "the combat in both the Kaito Files and LAD Gaiden are both extremely good and some of the better in the series"? Can you tell me some of the Inferior games in terms of combat in your opinion and why are these two considered better? I think Gaiden combat is fun, the movesets are pretty enjoyable, it's the lack of boss tweaking. KF on the other hand has some of the worst combat imo, especially after u finished the Yagami part, the comparison is brutal. The reused movesets is one thing, yet they still somehow nerfed them.

Bruiser
1. They messed up the combo speed, even though Kaito's light combo is 1-2 frames quicker than Kiryu's. Base speed of finish heavy, ex heavy is much slower than Kiryu's. The beautiful XXY combo in 0 and k1 becomes absolutely useless in KF
2. The new XY and XXXYY combos are designed poorly. No flow.
3. Each ex heavy except the final one gives knock down, Whoever designed this has no idea how og LJ combat stands out from the rest of yakuza games. After the first heavy landed, each heavy follow up can be easily dodged by enemies no matter goons or bosses. Remember Yagami's ex heavy combos? Crane, tiger, boxer, all of them are op as they supposed to and enjoyable with lots of style. Ex guard doesn't have any knockback skill and reguard skill
4. It's hard to give status to enemies. Stun can only be given by resolute counter. Pain can only be given by Tank running attack (seriously wth?) But the bosses in LJ can generally dodge running attacks.

Tank
1. Again pain status is always useful in yakuza games. Yet they put this on running heavy. Goons ez dodge.
2. The gap between second light and cross strike is crazy long especially when you fight against bosses. Bosses can easily dodge that. Even when hit, it can only break the guard. Because they put the guard breaking effect on the second strike. For Yagami's tiger, you can just do a XXYY combo which already has guard breaking effect, when you hold Y you can even knock down bosses, now this.
3. Grabbing is fked just like Gaiden, no need to say more.

Just sharing some thoughts hope u don't mind.

Regarding Kaito Files mechanics, I think you massively misunderstand how to play Kaito. Parrying attacks increases his combo speed and fixes many of your issues regarding attack speed. His bruiser XY combo is incredibly powerful, after a parry this guarantees you a grab in either style which allows you to set-up pretty much anything you want. Kaito's general gameplan is to parry an enemy and afterwards hit them with bruiser XY after which you can do pretty much whatever you want (and will have buffed attack speed due to the parry). The most common and useful thing is to then grab them while in tank style. If you then throw them forward you can get a guaranteed running heavy to inflict the agony status effect which allows you to do a lot more as you already know. For bosses you can also throw them into nearby walls. The wall bounce and recovery animation is perfectly timed so you can do cross strike to hit them exactly as they recover for a -guaranteed- juggle starter on bosses. There are setups for every boss that allows you to use cross strike for guaranteed combo starts and not just guard breaking. For Bruiser's XXXYY combo, yes it is incredibly slow but that is deliberate and that is exactly why it is useful. You can end juggle combos with this string, in the gap between the attacks the opponent will fall out of the combo and recover after which they will be hit by the knee attack and relaunched for another combo. It's a combo reset essentially, and against most bosses this can create an infinite combo loop. If anything that move is way too strong and incredibly overpowered.

tl:dr I just don't think you understand how to play Kaito. The moves you complain about are generally some of his most useful, grabbing is extremely powerful and leads to guaranteed juggle combo setups and you can inflict the agony status effect very easily

[ketrub]

you know that you're supposed to use the combo speed boost in kaito files right

[Scorpion]

Originally posted by Titan:

Originally posted by Scorpion:

About that I replied to Rocky under your post. Btw I wonder what's your opinion? Like why do you think "the combat in both the Kaito Files and LAD Gaiden are both extremely good and some of the better in the series"? Can you tell me some of the Inferior games in terms of combat in your opinion and why are these two considered better? I think Gaiden combat is fun, the movesets are pretty enjoyable, it's the lack of boss tweaking. KF on the other hand has some of the worst combat imo, especially after u finished the Yagami part, the comparison is brutal. The reused movesets is one thing, yet they still somehow nerfed them.

Bruiser
1. They messed up the combo speed, even though Kaito's light combo is 1-2 frames quicker than Kiryu's. Base speed of finish heavy, ex heavy is much slower than Kiryu's. The beautiful XXY combo in 0 and k1 becomes absolutely useless in KF
2. The new XY and XXXYY combos are designed poorly. No flow.
3. Each ex heavy except the final one gives knock down, Whoever designed this has no idea how og LJ combat stands out from the rest of yakuza games. After the first heavy landed, each heavy follow up can be easily dodged by enemies no matter goons or bosses. Remember Yagami's ex heavy combos? Crane, tiger, boxer, all of them are op as they supposed to and enjoyable with lots of style. Ex guard doesn't have any knockback skill and reguard skill
4. It's hard to give status to enemies. Stun can only be given by resolute counter. Pain can only be given by Tank running attack (seriously wth?) But the bosses in LJ can generally dodge running attacks.

Tank
1. Again pain status is always useful in yakuza games. Yet they put this on running heavy. Goons ez dodge.
2. The gap between second light and cross strike is crazy long especially when you fight against bosses. Bosses can easily dodge that. Even when hit, it can only break the guard. Because they put the guard breaking effect on the second strike. For Yagami's tiger, you can just do a XXYY combo which already has guard breaking effect, when you hold Y you can even knock down bosses, now this.
3. Grabbing is fked just like Gaiden, no need to say more.

Just sharing some thoughts hope u don't mind.

Regarding Kaito Files mechanics, I think you massively misunderstand how to play Kaito. Parrying attacks increases his combo speed and fixes many of your issues regarding attack speed. His bruiser XY combo is incredibly powerful, after a parry this guarantees you a grab in either style which allows you to set-up pretty much anything you want. Kaito's general gameplan is to parry an enemy and afterwards hit them with bruiser XY after which you can do pretty much whatever you want (and will have buffed attack speed due to the parry). The most common and useful thing is to then grab them while in tank style. If you then throw them forward you can get a guaranteed running heavy to inflict the agony status effect which allows you to do a lot more as you already know. For bosses you can also throw them into nearby walls. The wall bounce and recovery animation is perfectly timed so you can do cross strike to hit them exactly as they recover for a -guaranteed- juggle starter on bosses. There are setups for every boss that allows you to use cross strike for guaranteed combo starts and not just guard breaking. For Bruiser's XXXYY combo, yes it is incredibly slow but that is deliberate and that is exactly why it is useful. You can end juggle combos with this string, in the gap between the attacks the opponent will fall out of the combo and recover after which they will be hit by the knee attack and relaunched for another combo. It's a combo reset essentially, and against most bosses this can create an infinite combo loop. If anything that move is way too strong and incredibly overpowered.

tl:dr I just don't think you understand how to play Kaito. The moves you complain about are generally some of his most useful, grabbing is extremely powerful and leads to guaranteed juggle combo setups and you can inflict the agony status effect very easily

thanks for the tips bud. Though I need some time to consume these. Bed time for me now but appreciate all that. I didn’t describe the grabbing issues enough was too sleepy. Btw I mainly play on highest difficulty for no damage challenge, that’s prolly why I’m harsh on the status stuff

[Oni-Lyrics]

Another 0 redditor appears

[DilTinman]

Originally posted by Scorpion:

Originally posted by Titan:

I think you're missing the part where you've made all these claims without providing a single source to back them up other than your location in the world lmfao

https://www.famitsu.com/news/202302/21293304.html
https://www.famitsu.com/news/202309/15317004.html
OMFG he didn't provide ♥♥♥♥ and you guys instantly believe him, when It's my turn you guys becoming Columbo and Sherlock Holmes lmao :smileclown:
Love some more double standards. keep them coming

Still waiting on that proof of how they messed up the games Nagoshi was the lead for (which isn't even really true) because you're providing stuff i didn't even ask for.

Also coming up with ideas for a system in a game =/= having actually had a hand in creating it for the game. You ever notice how every game in the series has a credit for Battle Design Lead and Battle Program Lead and how neither of them give even slight credit to Nagoshi, Yokoyama, or Sakamoto?

Probably because they didn't actually help design and create the battle systems and just had final say on what got in the systems, you know, like how directors and producers do.

[Scorpion]

Originally posted by DilTinman:

Originally posted by Scorpion:

https://www.famitsu.com/news/202302/21293304.html
https://www.famitsu.com/news/202309/15317004.html
OMFG he didn't provide ♥♥♥♥ and you guys instantly believe him, when It's my turn you guys becoming Columbo and Sherlock Holmes lmao
Love some more double standards. keep them coming

Still waiting on that proof of how they messed up the games Nagoshi was the lead for (which isn't even really true) because you're providing stuff i didn't even ask for.

Also coming up with ideas for a system in a game =/= having actually had a hand in creating it for the game. You ever notice how every game in the series has a credit for Battle Design Lead and Battle Program Lead and how neither of them give even slight credit to Nagoshi, Yokoyama, or Sakamoto?

Probably because they didn't actually help design and create the battle systems and just had final say on what got in the systems, you know, like how directors and producers do.

. I never thought in Nagoshi era they messed up the games. I was saying Yokoyama’ Rgg brought bad combat to games. It’s like Metal Gear situation, Kojima left and new director Yota Tsutsumizaki handled MG:Survive which turns out bad. People can just blame Yota for tarnishing the franchise, they don’t need to find some specific roles in Yota’s team and say this program lead or this design lead messed up the game. When your name is shown big and clear at the end of the credits you have to take some responsibility. But I see your point and understand why you think that way

[Карбофос]

Me when a game actually requires learning it and won't let me just mash buttons to win:

[Big Laugh]

sounds like you should just go play 0 forever, or get good

[Foxpass]

Dragon engine. They spent a decade perfecting a combat system up to Yakuza 0, then they made a new engine and had to build a new one from scratch. Give it a few years (in Judgement).

[Amritadyne]

Cope.
dragon engine combat has been better than the old style for as long as it has existed. i'm saying this as a someone who's been playing these games since 2006.