Dodging....

[Beans]

I have to be missing something here... The game wants me to hold R1 and X at the same time to dodge? My hands f'n hurt so bad. I don't remember the other games being like this. The fighting in Yakuza 0 and the 2 remakes is great. Why does Kiryu feel so clunky in this game? I'm so frustrated with the controls.... There's no way to switch target so I have to constantly juggle L1, R1, X, and down, practically at the same time, and it's such a painful experience. It's incredibly clunky. It's extremely difficult to get the character to punch in the direction you want to punch. Everything I read made it sound like the combat was the best part, but this is the absolute weakest and frustrating battle system they've ever created. I hate playing this game. But I've loved every game before it... I don't get what's so f'd about this one.

But for the love of god... I have to be doing something wrong? I've never played a game that forced you to crab claw the controller in such a uncomfortable way....I own the whole Yakuza series and I don't recall this ever being the case.

[retsa2b]

This is pretty much the only case where I would use a mod to change this, if somebody made it.

I very strongly prefer playing the game the way SEGA intended, which is why I will not use any combat overhaul mods, but the fact of the matter is that SEGA used to allow dodging just by pressing A. Because there is a very strong precedent, and even an argument to be made for returning the controls to their original iteration, I'd be more than happy to just drop in a mod that lets me dodge without forcing me to enter combat stance to do it.

[Titan]

Needing to hold lock on to perform a dodge is not an issue at all. It's a carryover from the Judgment games, and yeah it might take some getting used to (like 5 minutes that is before it becomes second nature) but it's intuitive and easy to control. Also certain combos are only possible because of this control change.

[Legato Bluesummers]

I didn't feel like combat overhaul was particularly necessary for this game, but they've already got a really good one out. There's one for Kiwami 2 that I feel is practically necessary, it drastically changes how fun that game is to play. Probably the same for Y6. I would suggest doing a regular playthrough first but on a Legend run it's definitely awesome to get a lot of old moves back

[retsa2b]

Fundamentally, requiring you to lock before you can dodge is just a redundant step. Let's ignore the reality that the control over whom you lock onto is the next best thing to random when you're in the middle of a crowd of enemies—however "intuitive" the Judgment/Gaiden system may be argued to be, simply holding the stick in the direction you want to dodge and pressing "A" to dodge is, bluntly, more intuitive.

It's not like this is the first time SEGA has taken a step backwards with aspects of their games. Every time they fix something that isn't necessarily broken, they run this risk. Even the best minigame in the franchise's history, Yakuza 0's cabaret club, was slightly downgraded when they rehashed it in Yakuza Kiwami because they couldn't just leave well enough alone. I don't blame them for being on the constant lookout for ways to improve things, but I do blame them for being unaware when they've made things worse.

[Titan]

Originally posted by retsa2b:

Fundamentally, requiring you to lock before you can dodge is just a redundant step. Let's ignore the reality that the control over whom you lock onto is the next best thing to random when you're in the middle of a crowd of enemies—however "intuitive" the Judgment/Gaiden system may be argued to be, simply holding the stick in the direction you want to dodge and pressing "A" to dodge is, bluntly, more intuitive.

It's not like this is the first time SEGA has taken a step backwards with aspects of their games. Every time they fix something that isn't necessarily broken, they run this risk. Even the best minigame in the franchise's history, Yakuza 0's cabaret club, was slightly downgraded when they rehashed it in Yakuza Kiwami because they couldn't just leave well enough alone. I don't blame them for being on the constant lookout for ways to improve things, but I do blame them for being unaware when they've made things worse.

I think one thing you're ignoring is that the added step of locking on gives you more control. I can immediately start running because of the added step by simply not locking on (which is useful in combos, things like using serpent during boss juggles is only possible because you can stop holding lock on and start an immediate run instead of quickstepping first). This change in control has not made anything worse in any way, some people just don't like change.

[retsa2b]

Originally posted by Titan:

This change in control has not made anything worse in any way, some people just don't like change.

Feels like an impasse. I contend that pressing a single button along with the reliably intuitive hold-stick-in-desired-direction is quicker, and that quicker is better when you have only a split second to react and dodge. Presumably, though, folks who like change would be even happier if they had to press three or more buttons to effect the same action.

[Foxpass]

Originally posted by Titan:

I think one thing you're ignoring is that the added step of locking on gives you more control. I can immediately start running because of the added step by simply not locking on (which is useful in combos, things like using serpent during boss juggles is only possible because you can stop holding lock on and start an immediate run instead of quickstepping first). This change in control has not made anything worse in any way, some people just don't like change.

When you're running through a group of enemies and you have to stance+dodge when someone takes a swing or shot instead of just dodging, of course that makes it worse. Tapping the button isn't incompatible with any combos. In Judgement, while you don't do the same quickstep, you still do an evasive move when you tap the button.

There are a lot of great additions to the combat in this game, but not all changes are good. This one was bad.

[Titan]

Originally posted by Foxpass:

Originally posted by Titan:

I think one thing you're ignoring is that the added step of locking on gives you more control. I can immediately start running because of the added step by simply not locking on (which is useful in combos, things like using serpent during boss juggles is only possible because you can stop holding lock on and start an immediate run instead of quickstepping first). This change in control has not made anything worse in any way, some people just don't like change.

When you're running through a group of enemies and you have to stance+dodge when someone takes a swing or shot instead of just dodging, of course that makes it worse. Tapping the button isn't incompatible with any combos. In Judgement, while you don't do the same quickstep, you still do an evasive move when you tap the button.

There are a lot of great additions to the combat in this game, but not all changes are good. This one was bad.

Saying tapping the button isn't incompatible with any combos is just flat out wrong. If this game quickstepped whenever you tapped the run button instead of requiring a lock on there are certain juggles that flat out would not be possible (again, using Serpent in juggles only works because of this).

[Foxpass]

Serpent doesn't engage unless you hold the button as far as I can tell. But even if there is some trick move that involves tapping, it would be used far less often than simply dodging (or some other evasive move like Judgement) while running in both styles.

[Titan]

Originally posted by Foxpass:

Serpent doesn't engage unless you hold the button as far as I can tell. But even if there is some trick move that involves tapping, it would be used far less often than simply dodging (or some other evasive move like Judgement) while running in both styles.

You're right, it doesn't engage unless you hold the button. But the quickstepping does happen even if you hold the button. The extra time you take to go through the quickstep animation means it won't come out fast enough. By being able to not lock on and skip doing the quickstep completely it is able to activate faster and thus be used in juggles. IIRC as well in Lost Judgment there is a similar thing that allows you to do instant running attacks. This is an advantage of the current control scheme.

[retsa2b]

Seems to me they should have just given the user control over this, in the menu. For the handful of people who legitimately like the tradeoff because of a use case that the vast majority of players will never need, the new system can be turned on. For the likely majority who would prefer the game operates like the majority of the franchise, not to mention every Souls game ever made, the new system can be left off.

[Titan]

Originally posted by retsa2b:

Seems to me they should have just given the user control over this, in the menu. For the handful of people who legitimately like the tradeoff because of a use case that the vast majority of players will never need, the new system can be turned on. For the likely majority who would prefer the game operates like the majority of the franchise, not to mention every Souls game ever made, the new system can be left off.

"Not to mention every souls game ever made"

Why tf are you mentioning souls games in a discussion about the yakuza series lmfao.

[Foxpass]

Originally posted by Titan:

Originally posted by Foxpass:

Serpent doesn't engage unless you hold the button as far as I can tell. But even if there is some trick move that involves tapping, it would be used far less often than simply dodging (or some other evasive move like Judgement) while running in both styles.

You're right, it doesn't engage unless you hold the button. But the quickstepping does happen even if you hold the button. The extra time you take to go through the quickstep animation means it won't come out fast enough. By being able to not lock on and skip doing the quickstep completely it is able to activate faster and thus be used in juggles. IIRC as well in Lost Judgment there is a similar thing that allows you to do instant running attacks. This is an advantage of the current control scheme.

It shouldn't work any differently from all the other hold vs tap functions. When you use spider you don't grab air. When you throw a cigarette, you don't throw a punch first. This doesn't slow down normal punching or grabbing either.

But this is still about a niche usage of the ability for agent style, which I'm saying would be fine to scrap if it's something 1% of players would use vs 100%. It's not even clear it was designed with this move in mind. There's nothing in its place in Yakuza style. I think they did copy this over from Judgement, but did not put in a running evasion move (Serpent sort of can function that way, but in Yakuza style it's just nothing.)

[retsa2b]

Originally posted by Titan:

"Not to mention every souls game ever made"

Why tf are you mentioning souls games in a discussion about the yakuza series lmfao.

Consider this from SEGA's perspective. After they started dropping the series on Steam, they began curating a very large audience. A lot of their story and design choices have reflected an interest in maintaining that audience—unfortunately including making the challenges less challenging, toning down content that might raise eyebrows, and now of course having a Western setting. They're pulling in mass audiences, and those audiences have played other games with on-paper similar mechanics. I'm not saying you have to be aware of these things, but SEGA seems keen to. It's important. Obviously a great deal more important than you believe.

If this wasn't a big deal, you wouldn't find people making multiple threads about how they don't like the way the controls are situated. One person's opinion doesn't weigh much against that bald reality.

[Titan]

Originally posted by retsa2b:

Originally posted by Titan:

"Not to mention every souls game ever made"

Why tf are you mentioning souls games in a discussion about the yakuza series lmfao.

Consider this from SEGA's perspective. After they started dropping the series on Steam, they began curating a very large audience. A lot of their story and design choices have reflected an interest in maintaining that audience—unfortunately including making the challenges less challenging, toning down content that might raise eyebrows, and now of course having a Western setting. They're pulling in mass audiences, and those audiences have played other games with on-paper similar mechanics. I'm not saying you have to be aware of these things, but SEGA seems keen to. It's important. Obviously a great deal more important than you believe.

If this wasn't a big deal, you wouldn't find people making multiple threads about how they don't like the way the controls are situated. One person's opinion doesn't weigh much against that bald reality.

They don't have on paper similar mechanics though. They are two completely different games with completely different gameplay formulas, trying to draw comparisons between them is pointless and irrelevant.