Is it just me or is the combat in this game absolutely TERRIBLE?

[Bruno]

Kiryu's combat is very slow in general, Yakuza Style is very slow, quickstep is slow and you can only do it once, extreme heat is worthless, you cant carry weapons, there are only a few heat actions avaliable, bosses all have hyperarmor and will suddenly counter attack you while you're combo'ing them, the heat gauge charges painfully slow.

How did they ♥♥♥♥ it up this bad? Kiryu in Kiwami 2 was way better to play as and that game is 6 years old.

[Scorpion]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Valk:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Scorpion:

Story peaked with 0, combat no. K1, 5 and LJ are. K1 combat itself is literally the overhauled version of 0's

The people who still insist on 0 having the best story in the series either havent played Judge eyes,or are on some insanely strong type of crack.

0 and JE both peak. Nice try with your little assumption tho

[Rocky McRockerson]

I'm guessing they tried to make Agent the fast style and Dragon the tanky damage style, which kinda fails when it has no form of flinch resistance or speed upgrades.

[Kiyohime]

SKILL ISSUE
took me only a few hours of adjusting, upgrades also exists to make Yakuza style better.
Yakuza for boss fights and Agent for sweeping mobs.

[Oni-Lyrics]

I disagree. 6 was DE Kiryu at his worst, Kiwami 2 was pretty bad but this is WAY better compared to them both. Sure, its not great. Especially when you compare Kiryu to Yagami and Kaito. Kiryu's styles just aren't designed for DE. It needed to be completely reworked but I feel like they rushed a lot of it. Another thing is just the enemies AI and statistics. Too many enemies can ignore hits and swing through. ESPECIALLY on professional. Additionally, the upgrade tree is very lacking. No quick step cancel is massive cringe.

Oh and Agent style is just stupid and useless.

[RaidenFury]

I have mixed feelings on it. It feels like it doesn't respond well in general. Maybe it's due to the denuvo or whatever. Input feels kind of sluggish. More importantly, both styles feel extremely underpowered, even when upgraded. Grappling in this game is useless because even standard enemies can break the grapple and sweep you. Heat actions feel very limited, and I've used very few throughout the game. I have to agree that the combat in lost judgement was way more responsive and generally better, but this is better than Y6.

Personally, I think the combat was peak in 0 and Kiwami. It felt the most responsive, and moves felt effective without having to rely on the tiger drop constantly.

[Rocky McRockerson]

All enemies for some reason have an ability to ignore grabs whilst attacking. Not sure why that was added, but it was.

[Valk]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von RaidenFury:

I have mixed feelings on it. It feels like it doesn't respond well in general. Maybe it's due to the denuvo or whatever. Input feels kind of sluggish. More importantly, both styles feel extremely underpowered, even when upgraded. Grappling in this game is useless because even standard enemies can break the grapple and sweep you. Heat actions feel very limited, and I've used very few throughout the game. I have to agree that the combat in lost judgement was way more responsive and generally better, but this is better than Y6.

Personally, I think the combat was peak in 0 and Kiwami. It felt the most responsive, and moves felt effective without having to rely on the tiger drop constantly.

Aside from 0 being held back massively with the awful heat gear mechanic.

[Bruno]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bruno:

>the heat gauge has a lot more uses here than in 6 or K2
The game barely even heat actions to begin with, lol. And even if that were true, good luck putting that heat bar to use since it charges ridiculously slow.

>Kiryu is MUCH slower in Kiwami 2 compared to this game
No? Kiryu had combo speed upgrades and triple quickstep, which in this game is only avaliable with the Agent Style which is weak af. Compare the "Yakuza" Style full combo speed with the combo speed with the upgrades in K2, its a night and day difference. Yakuza style cant even double quickstep. Also, the quickstep cancel was much better in that game.

>extreme heat isn't at all useless (if anything it is comically overpowered more than it's ever been before)
Its only usefulness is being able to Spam Ultimate Essence/Dragon God to cheese bosses, how fun.

The game doesn't have that many heat actions you're right, but it has more than enough (and very powerful ones). The versatility of heat use comes from the extreme heat mode and how often you should be turning it on and off due to how useful it is. Also yes heat builds slower than usual, but this isn't a problem because encounters normally have more enemies in this game and a lot more crowd controlling moves so you're going to be hitting more people more frequently (and on top of that there are ways to easily quickly build heat in this game extremely fast).

Also yes, Kiryu had combo speed upgrades in Kiwami 2 because the combo speed started off insanely slow. In this game the combo speed by default is just fine. And yes, triple quickstep is only available in agent, which isn't a problem because you can style switch at almost any time (or literally any time when in extreme heat) and the agent style is not "weak" at all.

Also, yes you can use extreme heat to cheese bosses with those heat moves. But saying that is the only use is just insanely wrong and proves you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, when in extreme heat the restrictions for style switching are removed, allowing you to use style switches to cancel animations that you previously could not which opens up a LOT of combat options for you. In Agent style it completely changes your attack string, and that new attack string is a great way of crowd controlling and also quickly launching for juggle combos (especially useful against bosses). The effects of gadgets are also altered (e.g. you call in ALL of your drones instantly, the cigarette bomb explodes on impact instead of being a timed explosion). You'll also have moves you can use after quickstepping enemies only while in extreme heat. For Yakuza style the effects are not quite as extreme as they are with Agent, but your regular attack string does get extended to allow you to do a pummel that is great for dealing a lot of burst damage (especially against enemies who like to block a lot). It also gives you access to the bounding throws for this style which are another great tool for crowd controlling, especially so considering unlike other combo throws these can be used on juggled opponents, meaning you can easily activate extreme heat mid-juggle to allow you to bounding throw the opponent mid juggle. So yeah, between giving you access to a wide variety of new moves and changing the effects of several other moves I think it's fair to say extreme heat has a lot more uses than you are giving it credit for.

>Kiryu had combo speed upgrades in Kiwami 2 because the combo speed started off insanely slow
It started slow but you could upgrade it. The same style in this game starts faster but has the same speed throughout the whole game and you cant upgrade it. Would much rather have the same base speed as Kiwami 2 but with the possibility of upgrading it than this slow crap we have.

>triple quickstep is only available in agent, which isn't a problem because you can style switch at almost any time
In Lost Judgment you could switch style much faster mid combo and that game had a decent "quickstep/dodge" for every single style, even Boxing. That's not an excuse.

>But saying that is the only use is just insanely wrong
Should've mentioned I was talking about the Yakuza style. It has uses with Agent and helps with crowd control, yes, but its pretty much useless with the Yakuza Style aside from those heat actions I mentioned. The additional string you get while using EX with Yakuza Style is worthless if you're playing on Professional. They'll 100% hyperarmor your ♥♥♥♥ mid combo and counter attack you.

Yakuza Style feels like an afterthought and is severally nerfed in this game for some reason. It has only a few upgrades, cant parry, cant double/triple quickstep, cant even grab people lol. People say its meant to be used against bosses, but you'd be better off using Agent even though its attacks are weaker and is meant to be used against multiple enemies.

[Bruno]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Kiyohime:

SKILL ISSUE
took me only a few hours of adjusting, upgrades also exists to make Yakuza style better.
Yakuza for boss fights and Agent for sweeping mobs.

There's 18 total upgrades for it and only less than half of them actually makes a difference. And Yakuza Style is so slow is terrible for boss fights, unless you play on normal and spam charged attacks and heals.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rocky McRockerson:

All enemies for some reason have an ability to ignore grabs whilst attacking. Not sure why that was added, but it was.

Im pretty sure you cant even grab bosses, at least not the main story ones. Every time I tried they broke free and counter attacked me, so I just stopped trying.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Rocky McRockerson:

I'm guessing they tried to make Agent the fast style and Dragon the tanky damage style, which kinda fails when it has no form of flinch resistance or speed upgrades.

It feels kinda like "Beast" from other games but without the flinch and damage resistance. I think that sums it up well.

[Titan]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bruno:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

The game doesn't have that many heat actions you're right, but it has more than enough (and very powerful ones). The versatility of heat use comes from the extreme heat mode and how often you should be turning it on and off due to how useful it is. Also yes heat builds slower than usual, but this isn't a problem because encounters normally have more enemies in this game and a lot more crowd controlling moves so you're going to be hitting more people more frequently (and on top of that there are ways to easily quickly build heat in this game extremely fast).

Also yes, Kiryu had combo speed upgrades in Kiwami 2 because the combo speed started off insanely slow. In this game the combo speed by default is just fine. And yes, triple quickstep is only available in agent, which isn't a problem because you can style switch at almost any time (or literally any time when in extreme heat) and the agent style is not "weak" at all.

Also, yes you can use extreme heat to cheese bosses with those heat moves. But saying that is the only use is just insanely wrong and proves you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all, when in extreme heat the restrictions for style switching are removed, allowing you to use style switches to cancel animations that you previously could not which opens up a LOT of combat options for you. In Agent style it completely changes your attack string, and that new attack string is a great way of crowd controlling and also quickly launching for juggle combos (especially useful against bosses). The effects of gadgets are also altered (e.g. you call in ALL of your drones instantly, the cigarette bomb explodes on impact instead of being a timed explosion). You'll also have moves you can use after quickstepping enemies only while in extreme heat. For Yakuza style the effects are not quite as extreme as they are with Agent, but your regular attack string does get extended to allow you to do a pummel that is great for dealing a lot of burst damage (especially against enemies who like to block a lot). It also gives you access to the bounding throws for this style which are another great tool for crowd controlling, especially so considering unlike other combo throws these can be used on juggled opponents, meaning you can easily activate extreme heat mid-juggle to allow you to bounding throw the opponent mid juggle. So yeah, between giving you access to a wide variety of new moves and changing the effects of several other moves I think it's fair to say extreme heat has a lot more uses than you are giving it credit for.

>Kiryu had combo speed upgrades in Kiwami 2 because the combo speed started off insanely slow
It started slow but you could upgrade it. The same style in this game starts faster but has the same speed throughout the whole game and you cant upgrade it. Would much rather have the same base speed as Kiwami 2 but with the possibility of upgrading it than this slow crap we have.

>triple quickstep is only available in agent, which isn't a problem because you can style switch at almost any time
In Lost Judgment you could switch style much faster mid combo and that game had a decent "quickstep/dodge" for every single style, even Boxing. That's not an excuse.

>But saying that is the only use is just insanely wrong
Should've mentioned I was talking about the Yakuza style. It has uses with Agent and helps with crowd control, yes, but its pretty much useless with the Yakuza Style aside from those heat actions I mentioned. The additional string you get while using EX with Yakuza Style is worthless if you're playing on Professional. They'll 100% hyperarmor your ♥♥♥♥ mid combo and counter attack you.

Yakuza Style feels like an afterthought and is severally nerfed in this game for some reason. It has only a few upgrades, cant parry, cant double/triple quickstep, cant even grab people lol. People say its meant to be used against bosses, but you'd be better off using Agent even though its attacks are weaker and is meant to be used against multiple enemies.

It can't double or triple quickstep but you do get the roll which is still extremely strong and more than enough to avoid anything the game throws at you. Regular grabs in this game are kind of useless across the board, yeah. Also I am playing on professional, the extra string for Yakuza style and access to the bounding throws (which are massively buffed from y6/k2) are absolutely useful in boss encounters. Also the style in general is very potent against bosses, it's your best way of safely laying in large chunks of damage at a time (seeing as Agent has only 1 way of launching a boss into a juggle which requires extreme heat active, whereas Yakuza style has 3 ways normally and 4 in extreme heat).

Also as for your point about Lost Judgment, yeah you could style switch faster and every style had a good dodge. But styles also had different dodges. That is very much the same case here. The style switch is a slower animation now yeah, but both styles do have very effective dodges just different ones. Comparing any RGG to Lost Judgment will always look bad in comparison though. RGG has never made a game that good before and likely never will again, it's that much better than everything else they've ever produced. But mechanically this game feels like a strong middle step between Judgment and Lost Judgment.

[RaidenFury]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bruno:

>Kiryu had combo speed upgrades in Kiwami 2 because the combo speed started off insanely slow
It started slow but you could upgrade it. The same style in this game starts faster but has the same speed throughout the whole game and you cant upgrade it. Would much rather have the same base speed as Kiwami 2 but with the possibility of upgrading it than this slow crap we have.

>triple quickstep is only available in agent, which isn't a problem because you can style switch at almost any time
In Lost Judgment you could switch style much faster mid combo and that game had a decent "quickstep/dodge" for every single style, even Boxing. That's not an excuse.

>But saying that is the only use is just insanely wrong
Should've mentioned I was talking about the Yakuza style. It has uses with Agent and helps with crowd control, yes, but its pretty much useless with the Yakuza Style aside from those heat actions I mentioned. The additional string you get while using EX with Yakuza Style is worthless if you're playing on Professional. They'll 100% hyperarmor your ♥♥♥♥ mid combo and counter attack you.

Yakuza Style feels like an afterthought and is severally nerfed in this game for some reason. It has only a few upgrades, cant parry, cant double/triple quickstep, cant even grab people lol. People say its meant to be used against bosses, but you'd be better off using Agent even though its attacks are weaker and is meant to be used against multiple enemies.

It can't double or triple quickstep but you do get the roll which is still extremely strong and more than enough to avoid anything the game throws at you. Regular grabs in this game are kind of useless across the board, yeah. Also I am playing on professional, the extra string for Yakuza style and access to the bounding throws (which are massively buffed from y6/k2) are absolutely useful in boss encounters. Also the style in general is very potent against bosses, it's your best way of safely laying in large chunks of damage at a time (seeing as Agent has only 1 way of launching a boss into a juggle which requires extreme heat active, whereas Yakuza style has 3 ways normally and 4 in extreme heat).

Also as for your point about Lost Judgment, yeah you could style switch faster and every style had a good dodge. But styles also had different dodges. That is very much the same case here. The style switch is a slower animation now yeah, but both styles do have very effective dodges just different ones. Comparing any RGG to Lost Judgment will always look bad in comparison though. RGG has never made a game that good before and likely never will again, it's that much better than everything else they've ever produced. But mechanically this game feels like a strong middle step between Judgment and Lost Judgment.

The bounding throws would be great if I could actually get them to work. My experience using Yakuza style is basically trying to crush the guard of enemies that turtle. I feel personally like both styles fall flat. Agent relies too heavily on the spider without much real pay off as most enemies shrug it off and retain weapons, while yakuza is just too clunky and slow. I'm still enjoying the game, but combat just doesn't flow well to me compared to past titles.

Side note, does anybody else feel like the coliseum is too easy until the later hell team rumbles? The difficulty jump there is insane from one battle to the next about midway through the plat battles. Everything else I flew through no problem. Well, except the third king.

[Bruno]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bruno:

>Kiryu had combo speed upgrades in Kiwami 2 because the combo speed started off insanely slow
It started slow but you could upgrade it. The same style in this game starts faster but has the same speed throughout the whole game and you cant upgrade it. Would much rather have the same base speed as Kiwami 2 but with the possibility of upgrading it than this slow crap we have.

>triple quickstep is only available in agent, which isn't a problem because you can style switch at almost any time
In Lost Judgment you could switch style much faster mid combo and that game had a decent "quickstep/dodge" for every single style, even Boxing. That's not an excuse.

>But saying that is the only use is just insanely wrong
Should've mentioned I was talking about the Yakuza style. It has uses with Agent and helps with crowd control, yes, but its pretty much useless with the Yakuza Style aside from those heat actions I mentioned. The additional string you get while using EX with Yakuza Style is worthless if you're playing on Professional. They'll 100% hyperarmor your ♥♥♥♥ mid combo and counter attack you.

Yakuza Style feels like an afterthought and is severally nerfed in this game for some reason. It has only a few upgrades, cant parry, cant double/triple quickstep, cant even grab people lol. People say its meant to be used against bosses, but you'd be better off using Agent even though its attacks are weaker and is meant to be used against multiple enemies.

It can't double or triple quickstep but you do get the roll which is still extremely strong and more than enough to avoid anything the game throws at you. Regular grabs in this game are kind of useless across the board, yeah. Also I am playing on professional, the extra string for Yakuza style and access to the bounding throws (which are massively buffed from y6/k2) are absolutely useful in boss encounters. Also the style in general is very potent against bosses, it's your best way of safely laying in large chunks of damage at a time (seeing as Agent has only 1 way of launching a boss into a juggle which requires extreme heat active, whereas Yakuza style has 3 ways normally and 4 in extreme heat).

Also as for your point about Lost Judgment, yeah you could style switch faster and every style had a good dodge. But styles also had different dodges. That is very much the same case here. The style switch is a slower animation now yeah, but both styles do have very effective dodges just different ones. Comparing any RGG to Lost Judgment will always look bad in comparison though. RGG has never made a game that good before and likely never will again, it's that much better than everything else they've ever produced. But mechanically this game feels like a strong middle step between Judgment and Lost Judgment.

The dodges in LJ were different from style to style but served the same purpose (even though snake's was the worst one)
The roll is useful for dodging but not for counter attacking enemies. If only we at least had Essence of Rolling, but nah.
I think its fair to compare it to Lost Judgment because it came out two years after it. Combat wise, all games were a evolution of the past one, except Gaiden. I doubt their next brawler game will be worse than LJ, it'll problably be just as good if not better.

[Titan]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bruno:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

It can't double or triple quickstep but you do get the roll which is still extremely strong and more than enough to avoid anything the game throws at you. Regular grabs in this game are kind of useless across the board, yeah. Also I am playing on professional, the extra string for Yakuza style and access to the bounding throws (which are massively buffed from y6/k2) are absolutely useful in boss encounters. Also the style in general is very potent against bosses, it's your best way of safely laying in large chunks of damage at a time (seeing as Agent has only 1 way of launching a boss into a juggle which requires extreme heat active, whereas Yakuza style has 3 ways normally and 4 in extreme heat).

Also as for your point about Lost Judgment, yeah you could style switch faster and every style had a good dodge. But styles also had different dodges. That is very much the same case here. The style switch is a slower animation now yeah, but both styles do have very effective dodges just different ones. Comparing any RGG to Lost Judgment will always look bad in comparison though. RGG has never made a game that good before and likely never will again, it's that much better than everything else they've ever produced. But mechanically this game feels like a strong middle step between Judgment and Lost Judgment.

The dodges in LJ were different from style to style but served the same purpose (even though snake's was the worst one)
The roll is useful for dodging but not for counter attacking enemies. If only we at least had Essence of Rolling, but nah.
I think its fair to compare it to Lost Judgment because it came out two years after it. Combat wise, all games were a evolution of the past one, except Gaiden. I doubt their next brawler game will be worse than LJ, it'll problably be just as good if not better.

You say combat wise all games were an evolution of the past one despite yakuza 6 and kiwami 2 stripping away and replacing everything and being a universal downgrade from what came before them

[Bruno]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bruno:

The dodges in LJ were different from style to style but served the same purpose (even though snake's was the worst one)
The roll is useful for dodging but not for counter attacking enemies. If only we at least had Essence of Rolling, but nah.
I think its fair to compare it to Lost Judgment because it came out two years after it. Combat wise, all games were a evolution of the past one, except Gaiden. I doubt their next brawler game will be worse than LJ, it'll problably be just as good if not better.

You say combat wise all games were an evolution of the past one despite yakuza 6 and kiwami 2 stripping away and replacing everything and being a universal downgrade from what came before them

I meant considering Dragon Engine games and Old Engine games separately, LJ>JE>K2>6, K1>0>5>4>3.
I didnt like Dragon Engine combat until lost judgment and playing 6 after 0 made me mad at the time.

[RaidenFury]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Bruno:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

You say combat wise all games were an evolution of the past one despite yakuza 6 and kiwami 2 stripping away and replacing everything and being a universal downgrade from what came before them

I meant considering Dragon Engine games and Old Engine games separately, LJ>JE>K2>6, K1>0>5>4>3.
I didnt like Dragon Engine combat until lost judgment and playing 6 after 0 made me mad at the time.

I agree with you, actually. Switching to the new engine for K2, and 6, I really did not enjoy the combat. LJ made it fun again, and it felt great. This title feels like it's lost somewhere in between and doesn't do anything well.