Blackwell Epiphany ending (Spoilers!)

[chris]

So i was looking forward to this game a lot and it was a very bittersweet feeling for me to play the final blackwell game. I took my time (my first playtrough took me 9 hours) and i think i enjoyed it more by drawing it out a little.

I had a feeling that Madeline might be behind the ghosts dying after talking to her for the first time, thought i expected it to be because she went berserk after losing her host and being in the void for so long.
What really surprised me was when she revealed that she had been the reason why Lauren and Rosa's grandma went mad and had to die. That was the point where i lost my sympathy for her, since i really liked Lauren, even if she wasnt as invested in the soulsaving business as Rosa.

The fact that Rosa had to die in the end may make sense storywise, but i felt it was so unfair after saving every single lost soul on the planet(except joey).
I LOVE Rosa and Joey as a team, and i had hoped they really would get a vacation and after a while start doing their thing again. Knowing that Madeline caused the breakdowns in her family, they wouldn't have to do it in fear of rosa going crazy anymore, but purely because they belive in the work they're doing.

I really hope that turning Joey into a living, breathing Person again will give him the ability to move on eventually and that he wont forget about rosa, or rather, the blackwells, comletely.

So, the Ending for me was heartbreaking, it wasnt the Ending i wanted, but the one the Story needed. Nothing can last forever, and it is better to end Blackwell in a fulfilling way instead of drawing it out endlessly.

So thank you Dave, for making this awesome Series happen, for this awesome last game - and damn you for making me cry like a little girl.

[madgrace]

Combustible Jackass a écrit :

Boy, this thread sure got aggressive. :conwayheadscratch:

Anyway, Wadjeteye's next game is called Unavowed[www.wadjeteyegames.com]. It's set in the same universe as the Blackwell games, but features a new story and cast.

I am looking forward to it!

[Wadjet Eye Games]

Just to clear a few things up:

Chris Jones has always given his blessing on commercial games. My games weren't even the first to go commercial. "Adventures of Fatman" has that honor, with "Al Emmo" being the second. Also, I've met Chris Jones on several occasions and chatted with him a lot, so if there was ever any issue I'm sure he would have brought it up long before now.

Regarding the prices, we never raised them. We've always launched at $14.99 and we typically lower them to $9.99 after a year or two. The two exceptions are Resonance and Primordia, which launched at a lower price because we got front page placement on Steam.

Regarding everything else... I am hardly an authority on what people should like or dislike. If you hate Epiphany's ending, I'm not going to tell you that you shouldn't. These things are super subjective and I knew I couldn't write an ending that made everyone happy. In the end, I could only make MYSELF happy. So I focused on that. More often then not, it's enough.

If you'd like to approach me directly with any questions or concerns and things, I'm usually pretty responsive. Steam forums are the worst place to expect an answer from me, since we've got over 10 games on Steam and keeping up with all the forums is next to impossible. :) I'm always on Twitter, so if you hit me up there I will usually answer.

Anyway, back to lurker mode. As you were.

-Dave

[Flowers]

I figured I would post here since this is about the ending. I loved the ending except

1. That Rosa saved all of the ghosts. I thought it should be over a smaller scale like all of the ghosts in NYC only.

2. That Durkin randomly dissapeared. I thought he should have came back when Rosa appeared to be going insane. I wish that there was an explanation to what happened to him. I did not play the commentary yet. I feel that he is a really important character.

Maybe some updated or added scene can show his perspective and what happened? Even a written explanation, though that would not be as satisfying, would be fine.

On a side note:

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Joey was in love with Rosa and maybe she was too. I like the thought of that. His reaction was so sincere.

Good voice acting there!

P.S: I wish that the soundtrack was avaliable on steam.

[Pigeon Pecking Keyboard]

My gut tells me Joey has a stronger connection with the Aunt, kinda sad that the Aunt was locked up.

[Glum]

I personally think that bestowers should not deal with vampires. Bestowers deal with spirits and vampires are for some other game in same universe.

[D_REVAN]

great game, series and ending, i agree with Flowers commentary, but great ending never the less

[Xan]

Too many unresolved plot points for a "finale".

[GATO ARABE]

Yes I loved this series. Thanks Dave. Also bump.

[Loot Hunter]

Flowers a écrit :

Maybe some updated or added scene can show his perspective and what happened? Even a written explanation, though that would not be as satisfying, would be fine.

Actually there is a deleted scene in the commentary mode that suggests Durkin was getting orders directly from Commissioner (you know, the one who was the head of "spiritual vampire society"). But since she was cut from the game, that subplot was dropped entirely.

My two main problems with Epiphany (and I think I've wrote about it somewhere already) are:
1. That mentioned drop of Commissioner subplot.

2. *Transforming* Joey into living person, instead of him, for example posessing Father Cooper's body. The latter would be more appropriate for "urban fantasy" genre, while the former looks like "fairy tale".

P.S. With all that said, I understand why Dave Gilbert made the story the way he made it. And I'm glad that he, unlike most modern developers, agrees that it's ok for players (like me) to dislike his vision of the game. Maybe I'll try Unawoved one day. And write somewhere an Epiphany fanfic that shows the story, how I thought it should unfold.

[Noob Herder]

Wow, just wow. Skimming through some of the comments, I really can't believe that people think the ending was good. The best ending would have been for Joey to allowed to pass on. As for Rosa, she became quite the tragic heroine, she dies yet a lost soul (Joey) gets a second chance at life? Where's her chance!? She was denied her opportunity to live out her life. The ending was terrible in my opinion - I would've the ending been Rosa disappearing far away in the night leaving her troubled life in the past or grow old, reminisce and telling her grandkids about her life. I really liked this last chapter, the HUGE ambition. The puzzles were decent and even fun. The story (up until the finale) was just amazing like a good book. But that ending really sucked the life of the series.

[Pigeon Pecking Keyboard]

A bittersweet ending is not a bad thing in my books. The aunt got locked up, that's a worse fate to me.

[CykutaVirosa]

Chalk me up on the bad ending side.

And not because Rosa dies, although I think a better way here would be for Joey to move on and leave her - that would have been "bittersweet" because they've grown to be friends and care about each other and now it's gone. The way it is, it's just bitter. Rosa is dead and Joey is on his way to become another crazy NYC hobo, given he has no skills, no legal identity and no real knowledge of 21st century world.

In my opinion, the worst part about the ending is that it only sort-of fits the established story and setting if you really squint hard and don't think about the details. When you do, there's this mass of unsatisfactory inconsistencies, none of which is that big in itself, but together they form this weird soup of senselessness.

Starting with Jocelyn somehow being able to shut Madeleine off, even though Jocelyn was a disinterested medium that went along on cases grudgingly and showed no interest in things spiritual. It makes no sense for her, of all people, to find a way to get rid of a spirit guide. It makes sense she'd want to, but not that she could.
And on that subject, Jocelyn we see in game #5 does not fit the Countess at all. The Countess said she helped people and it felt good, while Jocelyn dislikes and resents it.

Joey being saved by Madeleine and yet coming back to be a guide makes no sense, and Madeleine's (non)explanation makes it worse than if we never got any explanation at all. The whole bit with him being saved by them is especially jarring given that he gives no sign of knowing Madeleine in game #3.

Then there's Madeleine being responsible for the Blackwell psychosis. That's the worst part of it, IMO. The things Joey said in game #1 show pretty clearly that it's refusing the medium-call that drove the Bs crazy. (Or that he actively did it and he's the villain - this was my pet theory and I think it would have been awesome.) This is also supported by the things Countess says in game #2 and her whole story - lose the guide, go crazy, try to still do crazy medium-ing in the hope that things will revert. Plus, if Madeleine is guilty here, then she jumps back and forth between being good and helpful and evil and using people, and between having info and powers and having no clue and needing help.

I actually like the idea of Madeleine being the villain, I think game #3 did a good job setting it up, but this ending squanders it. It should have been a better, subtler plan that fitted the previous data. As it is, Madeleine has suddenly stumbled onto conveniently vulnerable souls, suddenly turned into a mass murderer-soul-eater, suddenly worked out how to get better at possessing, and got all that undone by forgetting the basic thing about being a spirit guide (the proximity problem). Also by being choked.

Oh and the killer vortex above New York City? Preposterous. Not just because of the rapid scale shift and all that everyone already said, but because of how cliche it is. "New York City is about to be destroyed aaa!" is just such a cheap, 'MURICA way to write a story. And the series was doing such a fantastic job showing the city as an actual place, with landmarks and people, not the Hollywood-Center-of-Civilisation-and-the-Only-Thing-That-Matters it usually is.

All in all, this ending feels like someone took an almost-finished jiggsaw puzzle, realised the last pieces are lost, cut the new pieces out by hand but without doing exact measurements, and then shoved them into the puzzle by force hoping that with enough hammering no one will notice.

But I still enjoyed the series very much, I'm glad this game exists and will happily check out any other products by this team. The ambiance was great, the setting interesting (paranormal investigation is one of my favourites), the inclusion of real places and people was fantastic. The endings of games #4 and #5 were both unsatisfying, but this happens. And at least they were endings and they did answer some questions, instead of just throwing an intriguing story out of the window completely. (Looking at you, Kathy Rain.)

[Noob Herder]

CykutaVirosa a écrit :

I actually like the idea of Madeleine being the villain, I think game #3 did a good job setting it up, but this ending squanders it. It should have been a better, subtler plan that fitted the previous data. As it is, Madeleine has suddenly stumbled onto conveniently vulnerable souls, suddenly turned into a mass murderer-soul-eater, suddenly worked out how to get better at possessing, and got all that undone by forgetting the basic thing about being a spirit guide (the proximity problem). Also by being choked.

This. This is the major plothole that really irks me. Madeleine and her host had to be near proximity where George was shot and where Lia committed suicide for her to absorb their souls which adds another plot hole: who was the shooter in the beginning. The other explanation could be that Father Ullman was the shooter, but there is no hint this is the case and it seems that he has been hiding in the protective circle for days. However, there's still the question: who was the person that killed George.
It's my understanding from the commentary mode that there was a subplot of the Police commisioner's involvement that was hinted at the end of Deception, but the game ends with too many unanswered questions. I too enjoyed the series but the ending really let me down.

CykutaVirosa a écrit :

And not because Rosa dies, although I think a better way here would be for Joey to move on and leave her - that would have been "bittersweet" because they've grown to be friends and care about each other and now it's gone. The way it is, it's just bitter. Rosa is dead and Joey is on his way to become another crazy NYC hobo, given he has no skills, no legal identity and no real knowledge of 21st century world.

Fully agree. Imagine Rosa talking out loud thinking Joey is behind her because she's grown so accustomed to him, only to turn around and remember that he's gone - hell, still better love story than twilight.

[Loot Hunter]

FilliesAreBest♥ a écrit :

explanation could be that Father Ullman was the shooter, but there is no hint this is the case

Actually, I think there is. When revealing herself as a villain Madelyn tells Ullman that he was so easy to control as his memory (or something like that).

CykutaVirosa a écrit :

Joey is on his way to become another crazy NYC hobo, given he has no skills, no legal identity and no real knowledge of 21st century world.

Well, what I can only say is that there would be so less problems if Joey ended up posessing Father Ullman. He would have a life, he even could continue as a priest, helping people to figure their problems and accompanying them when they pass away (not unlike what he did as a spirit guide.

CykutaVirosa a écrit :

"New York City is about to be destroyed aaa!" is just such a cheap, 'MURICA way to write a story. And the series was doing such a fantastic job showing the city as an actual place, with landmarks and people, not the Hollywood-Center-of-Civilisation-and-the-Only-Thing-That-Matters it usually is.

Tecnically, New York wouldn't be destroyed. Just all ghosts there would be annihilated. But yeah, Hollywood mindset strikes again.

[CykutaVirosa]

Yes, Madeline says her host the priest* shot George, while being... hypnotised by her, or something like that, and "not even remembering it."
That's another cop-out in this ending - "oh, the solution to the very first mystery? Yeah, I did it, too. By using this other set of powers I also conveniently have. See, I at the same time can completely control people body and mind, even down to committing murder and total harmless amnesia, and I also had to try for decades to possess a person, failed multiple times, destroyed them in the process, and needed to canibalise energy to even try."

(* minor nitpick - that was father Michael Cooper, not father Ullman. Father Ullman is the other priest, the one sitting inside the Grace Church proper, who at first pretended not to know Michael and told you to keep your voice down. )

Tecnically, New York wouldn't be destroyed. Just all ghosts there would be annihilated. But yeah, Hollywood mindset strikes again.

I think when Joey and Benjiro talk about the vortex, they say it will destroy every soul alive or dead. Though I may be wrong. The ending is also a massive infodump, so it's easy to be lost in all the last-minute explaining. (Which is kinda cute. In anniversary commentary to game #1, the author criticises himself for making a massive infodump right at the start. So here he did it at the end! :D)