Wtf is wrong with the Ottoman Empire?

[DS]

Their units are so broken I cannot believe it. I have never felt so outclassed in my life. He has military tech level 13 and I have military tech level 12 - pretty close. I've maxed out Offensive military ideas, and I'm not sure what he's invested in with his ideas, but he hasn't done as much military as me, according to the score screen. My units have 121% discipline to his 115% discipline, and we have equal military tactics levels. Battles should not go so heavily in his favor. And yet apparently he can attack into me, through a river and into a forest (-3 modifier total), and into my far superior general (5/2/2 to his 2/4/0), with only 22 regiments to my 23 regiments, while 11 more regiments reinforce me a couple days later. He won the battle by a long shot. My troops were utterly shattered. It makes no sense at all.

I took a look at the individual stats of his units and my jaw almost hit my desk. His cavalry are slightly better than mine - they have 3/2 morale and 3/1 shock, mine have 3/2 morale and 2/1 shock. Whatever. Not such a big deal, right? I'd figure. But his infantry are the real shocker. My infantry (Pike Infantry) have 3/2 morale and 1/2 shock and 0/0 fire. His infantry (Sekban) have 3/3 shock and 2/3 fire! Holy crap, they actually deal damage, unlike mine! But I figured his infantry were probably just offense oriented and had much lower morale than my obviously defensive oriented infantry, right? His infantry have 5/5 morale. Now that's just ridiuclous. My infantry are so much worse than his that I doubt that I would win if I had 3 regiments to his 1. But let's not stop there. His cannons have 3/3 fire, 3/3 shock, and 2/2 morale to my cannons, which have 3/1 fire, 3/1 shock, and 2/1 morale. My units are seriously outclassed, and we _don't_ have a large tech advantage. How am I supposed to deal with that?

[sevensided]

1. Ottomans have superior early game units. So do Muslims. This is intended. Mid game, East and Western tech groups catch up, and then quickly surpass them.

2. Everyone has access to the same cannons.

3. Did you forget to increase your military maintenence when the war started? The low morale of min maintenence will result in your armies getting stomped. Seems to be a common mistake.

[DS]

1. Alright I understand that. I'm a bit shocked it's _that_ much better early game, but it'll survive. I mean, I don't even border the Ottomans, so I don't battle them often, but I'm a little peeved that they're basically stomping over everybody and they seem to be somehow immune to rebels, despite owning almost the entirety of the middle east.

2. I kind of doubt that's correct. I don't remember the exact name of his cannons, but they have Dehli in their name. My next military tech level, which would put me at the same level as his, does not upgrade my cannons.

3. No I always remember to increase military maintenence when wars start. My units have trouble beating stacks 1/4th their size without max payment. He does have much higher prestige than me though, since the war started at a pretty bad time and I had just gotten a negative event that gave me -33 prestige (ouch!), so admittedly morale is giving him a crazy bonus. Morale seems to be incredibly important in this game. I'm not sure exactly how combat works in that regard....

[sevensided]

2. Hmm...I will have to double check that. I've played as Oman, Brandenburg, and Poland, and they all had the same cannon types. Wouldn't surprise me if the Ottomans were the exception.

3. Morale, Generals, and Discipline are VERY important in combat. As Prussia with super high discipline, good general, and morale, I can beat 30k stacks from France with my 20k stacks, and they're only one tecjh level behind in military.

Also, some countries, and iirc, the Ottomans are one of them, get national ideas that increase fighting capabilities for unit categories. So if they have that, plus say, Quality military ideas, then thier infantry (or in Ottomans case, Calvary) is THAT much better than yours.

[sevensided]

Checked on the cannons- and yes, everyone has the same cannons. At 13, you get Chambered Demi Cannons, and they're the best Cannons for a while. You'll get them at 13 too.

[DS]

Well, yeah, the Ottomans do get 10% discipline naturally, but my units have higher discipline anyway thanks to my investment in Offensive Ideas. My general is better too. Much better. It's really only morale, and the individual strength of his units that are far superior to mine.

Unrelated, what is "luck"? It seems the Ottomans have a substantial "luck" bonus in a great many things, including fort defense and trade power. They've had it for a very, very long time, so I rather doubt that it's a random event. Is this a natural bonus to the Ottomans?

[DS]

My mistake. You are correct.

[Bandit17]

Luck is granted to the traditional power-houses during the timeline the game covers. It is there to help create a more historical outcome. If you don't like it Lucky Nations can be turned off in the start up options I think.

[DS]

Ah, I see. Thanks.

[deadsanta]

Just a thought, but is it possible that you missed an infantry upgrade last time you teched up? I did that when I was starting, couldn't figure out why I was getting beat until I realized I hadn't actually upgraded my units yet. I dunno, Pike seems kind of archaic for tech 13, but those stats look right...

[DS]

No, I was actually tech 11. I thought I was tech 12, but I was only tech 11. So I did still have pikes.

[On Vacation]

While the muslims and Ottomans do start stronger than Europe in terms of calvary most of this is explains just by the tech difference.Had you been at 12, you'd have either 4/5 morale, 3/4 fire, 2/2 shock or the offensive counterpart, 5/4, 3/3, 3/2. But the calvary does make a difference to. if you're defending. 3/1 is just 3 offensive, 1 defensive, so when you get attacked only the 1 matters where as the ottomans are getting their offensive of 3. You had the right idea using the terrain modifiers though, it's just not enough when their is a disparity between units. Being ahead in tech to where you have a superior unit is a huge advantage whether it be the AI or player.

Also lucky nations does give a modifier for revolt risk, so that could explain why you are not seeing rebels, although it is only a modifier of -1. Of course the difficulty you are playing on, could increase said modifier. Side note, you also can not turn lucky nations off if you are playing ironman mode for achievements.

[YanOtt]

Don't forget about +33% morale for Ottomans troops when they combat against infidel.

[VoiD]

Yeah good times, had a good game as the timurid horde going, had vast lands, when the ottomans reached my borders, needless to say my empire was destroyed.

[Nubnut]

Ya, fighting against either Muscovy/Russia (with their massive pools of manpower) or the Ottomans (with their ridiculously high quality infantry and cavalry) with lucky nations turned on is almost an assured death sentence in the early game.

That's how my last Ottoman game was decimated, I controlled all of the middle East, Balkans, and most of Italy, but I tried to invade Muscovy (to take Moskva for the achievement) and lost so hard that the rest of the world saw their opportunity to take back lost lands.

[Bandit17]

I've been able to conquer my way up to the Muscowy capital as the Mamluks so nothing is impossible. I'll admit there have been plenty of challenges and setbacks along the way though.