I still don't understand 'claiming the throne'

[Pat Splat]

After all this time I still don't get it. Totally clueless about the whole process actually. I enter a royal marriage with a country with a disputed succession, they have very low prestige, I claim their throne, time passes and every time I get the message 'you've lost your claim to the throne'. Not sure what's going on with that.

[Xara]

It means they produced an heir.

There are four possiblities.

A. No dynasty, no heir
B. No dynasty, weak heir / regency
C. Same dynasty, no heir
D. Same dynasty, weak heir / regency

Before patch 1.2, you received a claim throne CB and could force a union via war in any of the above. Now, you can only do so in C & D.

A = You may claim the throne, but you are essentially betting on whether or not the monarch simply dies before producing an heir. It's your call, and you might get lucky, but doing this on a fresh monarch who just ascended is wasting a claim and taking a huge relations hit for somenoe who is just going to produce an heir anyway. I wouldn't bother unless they are 30+ years old, and even then most of the time it's not gonna happen.

B = Do not claim the throne, you are utterly wasting it to do so here and I don't know why it's even un-greyed as an option, since you cannot gain anything from it.

C = The same thing as A, except you may start a war to force it if you want

D = Claim ONLY if you're going to war, because otherwise you are wasting it.

[Xara]

I suppose there's also an E. Same dynasty with them + another country, no heir = succession war

[Pat Splat]

Originally posted by Xara:

It means they produced an heir.

There are four possiblities.

A. No dynasty, no heir
B. No dynasty, weak heir / regency
C. Same dynasty, no heir
D. Same dynasty, weak heir / regency

Before patch 1.2, you received a claim throne CB and could force a union via war in any of the above. Now, you can only do so in C & D.

A = You may claim the throne, but you are essentially betting on whether or not the monarch simply dies before producing an heir. It's your call, and you might get lucky, but doing this on a fresh monarch who just ascended is wasting a claim and taking a huge relations hit for somenoe who is just going to produce an heir anyway. I wouldn't bother unless they are 30+ years old, and even then most of the time it's not gonna happen.

B = Do not claim the throne, you are utterly wasting it to do so here and I don't know why it's even un-greyed as an option, since you cannot gain anything from it.

C = The same thing as A, except you may start a war to force it if you want

D = Claim ONLY if you're going to war, because otherwise you are wasting it.

So when I share a dynasty with a country with no heir, I will be given a casus belli to claim their throne? If I share a dynasty and they have a weak heir, I will immediately start a war with them?

Sorry if I'm not making sense, still rather sketchy on the process but it's starting to make sense. I suppose I should pay more attention to the dynasties in the tooltip.

[Xara]

Sharing a dynasty is the ONLY way to start that war, you won't get a CB in A or B. And I'm saying in scenario D, the only reason you should claim the throne is IF you are going to start a war to force the PU, otherwise you are wasting the claim for no reason, because claiming when they have an heir gets you absolutely nothing if a war doesn't follow it.

[Xara]

I'll elucidate:

A : You do not share a dynasty. They have no heir. You may claim the throne. If they die without an heir, you get a personal union. If they produce an heir, your claim is removed. You may not start a war to create a union.

B : You do not share a dynasty. They have a weak heir. You may claim the throne. This is pointless and you will get nothing.

C : You share a dynasty. They have no heir. You may claim the throne. If they die without an heir, you get a personal union. If they produce an heir, your claim is removed. You receive casus belli to start a war, and may force a union. If they produce an heir before you begin that war, you lose the casus belli and the claim to the throne.

D : You share a dynasty. They have a weak heir or a regency. You may claim the throne. You receive casus belli to start a war, and may force a union. If the regency ends or the king dies and the heir ascends, you will lose the casus belli and the claim to the throne.

E : You, the target country, and a 3rd country share a dynasty. They have no heir. You may claim the throne. If you claim the throne and they die without an heir, you get a personal union. If the 3rd country also claims the throne, a succession war begins. If they die without an heir and neither of you claim the throne, a succession war begins. If you claim the throne, you may begin a war to force a union. If they produce an heir, all claims are removed.

F : You share a dynasty. I don't know the conditions, but you inherit the throne, bypassing a personal union completely.

Note that it is possible to share a dynasty without ever having married a country yourself. A marries B, B marries C, A and C can end up sharing a dynasty. And so on.

[Pat Splat]

Thanks, making sense now. So much more to consider when claiming the throne than I thought. Probably ruined the game I'm currently playing by attempting it so many times.

[Nex ☭]

Thanks, that made it a lot more clear!

[Pat Splat]

What if there's a regency council sitting in for the next heir, his name is in red. I assume that nothing will happen as the heir will take the throne, but what does the red indicate? That he's just too young to assume the throne?

[Grimson]

Nice explanaion. Thanks.

[Xara]

the red means his claim is weak

[Pat Splat]

Hopefully last question:

What about Poland? At the start, they're experiencing an interregnum. How does this differ from a regency?

I entered a royal marriage with Poland and suddenly ~2 years later there's a 19 year old king who seems to automatically be the senior partner of a personal union with Lithuania. Also, the tooltip states that the king was inaugurated on January 1, 1. ???

One more thing: I just automatically entered a personal union with Hungary even though I never claimed their throne, I only shared their dynasty with my king in Austria. At the time, Hungary was actually hostile to my country and we only had a royal wedding. Is this just some scripted event that follows an even in history or something where Hungary's king dies young?

[Xara]

The interregnum is unique to Poland's start and represents the fact that their King, Wladysaw, just got himself killed crusading against the Turks. Poland has a unique mission that requires stability 1 and 100 diplomatic points that places Lithuania in a PU under them, representing the real-life event of King Jagiellon of Lithuania being asked to take the throne. If Poland AI for some reason doesn't complete the mission, eventually a noble will arise to take the Poland throne and stop the interregnum. Lithuania's throne can be inherited at ADM 10 through another mission, but the AI usually fails at maintaining the union, or simply integrates it.

You don't have to claim a throne to receive a personal union. It can still happen if you are the most likely receptor and they have no heir.

[Pat Splat]

You're incredibly insightful, thanks again for your help!

[Avionauta]

Thanks, I was looking for the same! And I remember I've claimed throne and getting always the CB and forced the union before the patch, now I wasn't understanding why wasn't possible anymore.

[Pat Splat]

If my ruler that's leading a personal union dies, do I lose the personal union or does my heir continue it?