England: Idea Group Advice?

[Corvus_Alt1]

I know I've already asked this before, but right now I'm still trying to figure out what would be a better 2nd idea group. I've gone Exploration first, and I currently have a leader that is (4/6/1), an heir that is (6/2/5) and am the Curia controller though only with two cardinals, and just one future cardinal. I am thinking probably either Religious ideas since I have no idea how badly the Protestant Reformation will hit me, which might make integrating Portugal challenging. But I am also tempted to get either Economic or Innovative ideas, and I am also thinking about jumping to Expanson early to get the extra colonist. As you can imagine, I'm very conflicted.

[Corvus_Alt1]

Okay, so I've dropped religious ideas as an option, and now I'm looking at either Quality, Economic or Innovative ideas for my second group. Thoughts?

[Jormundgand]

Having never played england, I believe the religious idea is considered especially usefull as england by a lot of people.

[Corvus_Alt1]

Thanks for the comments! While I definitely fully intend to get Trade ideas, I still would argue that expansion is a very good choice for the third group since it makes it easier to expand quickly into multiple regions very quickly. Also, I have a personal rule about never getting two idea groups of the same type consecutively, just so I can avoid falling behind on tech. As is, I'm looking at Exploration, Economic, Expansion, Quality, Trade, Defensive, Naval, then probably Offensive, though I am willing to switch the order around depending on what's more useful at the time. Also, I should note that Portugal is a lesser partner in a PU with me, and Castile has an heir of the same Dynasty (Lancaster), so I can probably try claiming their throne again when Juana Lancaster becomes Queen. And if I'm lucky, Denmark will absorb Norway and I can calim their throne if they lack an heir. Again, still debating the exact order, so I'm open to alternative suggestions.

[Xander Tyrann]

As england i'd go for a military tech as my second idea, especially with the start you had in points with Henry, you'll probably have a hard time filling out 2 diplo ideas in a row, so putting one in there from another group is pretty important. if your weak on military power like your current ruler suggest then admin will do, but i find military to be more useful if you still have your holdings in france. Quantity is my recomendation, but its really up to your style.

my first playthrough as england i had a grand total of 1 province turn protestant. so i'd take religious on a case by case basis.

i usualy went with expansion before trade, because i found that locking down a region like north america as quikly as possible was the most important thing, then you could get trade home uncontested, but thats changed with patch 1.4 and i suspect directing trade through the north sea will become the priority, so trade will probably be the most important 3rd idea now if you've got the diplo points for it.

[Corvus_Alt1]

Thanks for the tip! Yeah, I ended up choosing economic ideas to take advantage of my admin points. Quality is definitely my preferred idea group, but I think it's more likely to end up my 4th one. Right now, its a toss up between Trade and Expansion, though I do believe Expansion might win out. Also, I'm debating on whether it will be a good idea to integrate Portugal immediately, or leave it be until I have Castile/Spain locked up in another PU. Here's hoping Juana Lancaster takes the Spanish throne quickly.

[Alex]

Expansion is good late game for the CB and early game for the extra colonist. Mid game it's not that useful because you have 2 colonists (you can run 4 coonies for 20 duckets a month, which is not crazy). The extra colonist lets you run 5 colonies for 25 duckets a month, so interms of a marginal increase in the value of the colonist, it's not that much (early on you can't afford to run 3 or 4 colonies, so running 2 for 5 duckets or 3 for 7, it's a good deal). The merchant from it is nice, and so is the +reputation and diplo relations, but as england you already get +2 relations (do you need 8? If you're crazy expanding then yes, else no).

I've done a few England/Scotland games and it really goes down to what your goal is. Economic is good if you don't want to expand alot, Quality is very useful because of your ships. Offensive is also quite good, for the forced march (you can land from your ships at twice the speed, very very valuable for tactical battles).


As mentioned, religious ideas is a wash, you don't need it unless you plan on elnisting privateers. Exploration ideas isn't a good first choice for England because you don't have colonial range (but you PU'd portugal, so this might make sense, given you now have their fleet basing rights implicitly, you can leap frog to south America...).

Just don't get another diplo idea. If you're going to be behind in tech, don't be more than 5 levels behind.

Innovative isn't what you want, really (or in my opinion). The tech cost is nice, but it also has revolt risk events (that give a futher tech bonus). The advisor costs is nice, and so is optimism, but it's only really really useful if you're constantly at war.

Once you get the War college and Admirality, you don't need the extra leader anymore (you rarely need more than 3 military leaders late game). The prestige decay was nerfed, and you can usually get enough events that give prestige to offset it. Merc cost is only good early game (your force limits get so large, but you don't have enough mercs to field for your army, so relative to your enemy, mercs won't help that much late game). Maintance cost of 10% is meh.

Economic or quality is much better than innovative in my opinion. I take innovative ideas if I need optimism, but if you don't need it then I would stay away. As Russia (Novgorod) or Byzantium I like to take it just because the extra military leader early game is good and you have tech penalties which are a pain to deal with. Optimism is needed because you are always at war with your large foce limits and man power.

As a trade power, it's much better to have a strong fleet than extra leaders and cheaper mercs and a population that tolerates war. If you're fighting naval battles mainly, not land battles than your WE shouldn't get too high. Attrition now is the main cause for high WE, and if you avoid the land, then you innovative isn't as benneficial.

Also, after 1600 (or is it 1650?) the innovative idea groups starts giving "revolution stalls" which is a cost in tech increase cost and other "bad" things like that. So late game, it's a no-go because it's main benefits are already provided and mitigated by bad events.

[Xander Tyrann]

I'd just like to add that having more vassals is probably alot more usful now you cant sell every province to them, so waiting for a military leader might be very advantageous. also dont forget about +20% trade power, the most important thing in the entire expansion ideas group :P the thing about expansion is that its all really useful. the biggest problem with it is that its a diplomatic idea, and all diplomatic ideas are so good :/
the only other ideas i really want to take over them would be offensive and quantity, offensive for being able to dictate the battles, and quantity so once the battle is won i can regen quickly and siege every province to stop them from building more troops.
i just find diplo points to be solid gold, you need them for taking vassals and provinces too... never have enough.

edit: and if you side with Aragon, you can take the canaries early on from Castile easily Core them with fleet basing rights from Aragon. means you can easily get into America within your first idea group. probably not relevent to Corvus anymore though :P

edit2: i clearly made the wrong choice in this matter on my current england game i started after my last lost Ironman :(

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=218466345



if anyone has any idea for getting me an extra 13 distance (already have the advisor) i'd appreciate it :P

[Corvus_Alt1]

Okay, wow, thanks for the input everyone! Seriously, I did not expect so much attention. Right now, it's 1495, I've gone Exploration and Economic, and I'm debating between either Quality or Expansion for my 3rd group, depending on long my current leader (6/2/5) stays alive, and how soon I get my heir on the throne (5/4/6). From the looks of it, I may need to go Quality for the third group so I can actually use all of my monarch points. Also, I have started annexing Scotland and integrating Portugal, the latter meaining that I really will have a strong foothold to expand into the Carribean quickly, especially if I go Expansion first. Of course, I could get lucky and PU Spain as well since Casile does have a Lancaster for an heir. Oh, decisions. Anyway, thanks again everyone! If you want to suggest my third group, I'm not going to stop you.

[Alex]

If you have a surplus of military points, consider a military idea OR build man power buildings and fortify strategic attack points (Ireland, along the channel, London, the Scottish Isles in narrow straits...)

[Swesal]

I pretty much always do quality as my second on colonial powers, and first on pretty much everyone else.