So is Ming just terrible?

[Moo Cow]

From my own experience and from what I've seen and heard from others who play EUIV, Ming kinda seems to just flatout suck. I heard they were alright in previous builds, but now they seem unplayable unless you're a long time EU veteran or something. I'm looking for interesting Eastern countries to play aside just Japan and stuff in ndia. Also, is there a decision to form China for anybody? I didn't notice one for Ming, though I didn't really look in depth.

[Plant]

They can form Qing.

The issue is the Celestial Empire government type, which is probably the worst in the game, and they start with it. It's historical to say Ming turned inward due to the Mongol threat but it's unfair how nerfed they are. A ming playthrough just isn't enjoyable in any way,

[Etaf]

honestly without the celestial empire nerf Ming will just gobble up all of the east easily. and laugh as it has the most money, troops, and land that puts even colonial nations to shame. So it is kinda fair..... If you want to play them it can be fun as long as you balance stuff out. (there is a faction system to somewhat counter the inward perfection) If you want to play an eastern nation that doesn't have to deal with that you can choose one of the manchu nomads north of ming (haixi, etc) they form into manchu then can conquer their way into Qing [since ai ming is really bad].

[Surimi]

Ming can't form Qing. Qing is the Machurian dynasty that replaced Ming, and as such is formable by any of the Manchu tribes once they conquer Northern China from Ming.

Ming is actually very easy to play, despite its disadvantages, because it's absolutely fricking massive. It starts with a base tax and manpower several times larger than the entire French region put together. While its disadvantages are fairly extreme, all they really serve to do is to make Ming's power comparable to that of other strong nations at the start of the game. The only credible threat to Ming at the start of the game are the hordes to the North, and unless something goes extremely wrong they will almost never willingly attack Ming.

Sadly, there is one thing which can go extremely wrong with Ming, and that is losing the mandate of heaven. Every gameplay decision as Ming should account for the need to retain the mandate of heaven. Fortunately, Ming has many unique events which grant the potential to gain stability or legitimacy.

As soon as Ming Westernizes, of course (which can be done quite early and easily by exploring the Americas, early enough to completely halt Russian expansion out of Europe, for example) it will immediately become the strongest nation on earth almost without question. At that point, the only reason to continue is to see just how much of the world can be assimilated into the unstoppable Chinese deathball.

Ming's ideas and government type got rebalanced recently and, in my opinion, aren't quite as good (although you could argue that Westernized Ming never needed +50% manpower and will thus benefit more from improved general fire instead). The new 10% tech cost reduction from celestial Empire is interesting though.

I think the best way to think of Ming, philosophically, is to remember that conquering the land which Ming starts out with would often take half if not all of an ordinary game of EU4. Ming has to devote time and energy to managing its internal problems in the early game, which may be frustrating if you just want to blob and expand, but ultimately with Ming there's no need to blob and expand. You are a unified China. In a sense, that means you've already won provided you can keep what you have.

[Kitten Food]

Ming is my favorite nation in the game and it isn't horrible in any way. You cannot expect to play Ming as you would play France. You have to look at it as playing in phases. The EU4 wiki has a very in-depth explanation of the unique mechanics and strategy. France doesn't even have that much detail in the wiki. You can't "form" China because the region was always reffered to by the dynasty ruling it, not the state. Its something that many of us westerners wouldn't understand since we don't really learn about Chinese history in primary education :)

Early is about diplomacy, manpower pool, technology and stability. Mid-game is about westernizing and recovering (it takes time to finish and then catch up). Late game is all about being the undisputed boss of the world. The one negative about westernizing Ming is that you lose the majority of the unique flavor events associated with the Celestial Empire. Events are bland and boring after that. That being said, you can give yourself another challenge and attempt to play until 1821 without westernizing.

@DeepHurting: the +1 Land Leader Fire is absolutely a buff! As you know, manpower isn't an issue, but leader fire is extremely rare in the game (a fact!). This +1 lets late game Ming trash troops from western group nations since most generals will spawn at 6 fire pips. On top of that, Chinese tech has higher fire pips earlier than the other groups, giving them superiority for a period of time with the bonus. Considering that discipline and fire matter more than shock and morale later in the game, this is about surviving early weakness and reward yourself with a nice treat :) Also, the +1 Fire makes sense considering how Ming was actively interested in firearms from western europe, something that Qing did not share since archery was considered an art and central to their military culture.

The 10% tech cost reduction was only reintroduced because they forgot to include it when they removed the discount from the Eunuch faction (it used to be -15% cost). It doesn't really make much of a difference in cost because it is only there to assist in spending points when changing factions.