Playing as Qara Qoyunlu (Horde) any tips to win against Ottomans? (Ironman mode)

[IndirectHero]

Hey all,

I tried two games playing the horde as Qara Qoyunlu and the first game-through was westernizing as soon as possible and teching real quick. My ally Mamluks called me to war to defend against Ottomans, and sadly we both got steamrolled in our mountain position to the point I had to restart. I had Economy, Offensive, and Religion as my national ideas, but it seems like it didn't do so well. I was 1 military tech level below when I joined the battle.

My second game-through is that I went ahead and vasslized Georgia right away and then declare war on Ottomans because I was reading that horde units are extremely strong early period. But for some reason, I still got steamrolled by Ottomans when both our military tech was at 4.

Any tips that I should know how to defeat the Ottomans as QQ? Such as national ideas, which nation I should attack first and etc. Any help would be much appreciated.

[Reverend Belial]

You need countless hordes of men, and many many vassals with better units than you. Alternately if you want to go the slow way you might be able to hold out until they eventually stagnate and strike when they're at their lowest, but they'll probably have killed you by then anyway. Forming Persia may also be a good idea.

[ersatz]

Dismantling the Ottomans early on is probably the best move but you need at least a shock 3 general and a fair amount of cav to get the most out of your early horde armies. If you can find ottoman stacks of 10 or less, you can stackwipe in a single battle with a bit of luck by attacking with twice its numbers. It'll be a tough war so try to get at least 3 vassals (minor turkish states, shirvan, haasa), go over the force limit, and hire a lot of merc infantry even if you have to take many loans.