Exploration & Expansion idea group

[SunDriedSheet]

Serious question, are these a trap?

[Narrowmind]

No. Some nations are predisposed to take firm advantage of these ideas, like Spain. Also, they also represent the chance to rapidly accelerate trade flowing directly into their zones. It makes sense for these nations to explore the new world. Otherwise, the big three are much better options for most nations, namely Diplomatic, Administrative, and Influence.

[Kapika96]

No. Expansion isn't that bad. Better than most diplo/military ideas even. I'd take it any day over something ♥♥♥♥ like espionage or maritime. -10% min autonomy in territories literally doubles their output (you go from 10% to 20%), considering how powerful conquering outside your region and trade companying most of it is, that can be a pretty big benefit.

Exploration ideas are ♥♥♥♥. But colonists are powerful. Typically as one of the main colonists I'll take exploration and just the first 2 ideas so I can explore and start colonising. Then around I'll probably take expansion around the 4th idea group and drop exploration and get something better instead. As a non-main colonist, I'll just ignore it completely and take expansion if I want colonies and just steal maps from others.

[SunDriedSheet]

The point I am trying to make is that colonization is simply not beneficial, not only you need at least 1 idea group that will allow you to do that, but you also have to pay a lot of money in colonial maintenance to build up your colonies into full provinces. So why would you do that if you can simply let other colonizers do all the work and then you simply take it from them at highly reduced cost. In my current campaign I let Castile, Portugal and England live just on 1 state and once every 10 years+- I take about 15 provinces from each one of them in the New world.

Exploration is also not a thing as the entire world map is gradually revealed to me anyways, colonizers are just about 20 years ahead and at 1600s exploration & expansion become comletely useless as there's nothing to colonize anyway.

[Invisible]

As Portugal or Castille these are the two first ideagroups. Global trade power 20% and an extra merchant is pretty mighty.

Colonies are not about manpower and tax, they about generate trade value and give you trade power and narval capaity. If you can steer it all the way to your home node you get filthy rich.

If you want cored provinces, go for africa. There are no "colonies".

[Kapika96]

Originally posted by SunDriedSheet:

The point I am trying to make is that colonization is simply not beneficial, not only you need at least 1 idea group that will allow you to do that, but you also have to pay a lot of money in colonial maintenance to build up your colonies into full provinces. So why would you do that if you can simply let other colonizers do all the work and then you simply take it from them at highly reduced cost. In my current campaign I let Castile, Portugal and England live just on 1 state and once every 10 years+- I take about 15 provinces from each one of them in the New world.

Exploration is also not a thing as the entire world map is gradually revealed to me anyways, colonizers are just about 20 years ahead and at 1600s exploration & expansion become comletely useless as there's nothing to colonize anyway.

As I said "-10% min autonomy in territories literally doubles their output (you go from 10% to 20%), considering how powerful conquering outside your region and trade companying most of it is, that can be a pretty big benefit."

That doesn't benefit you in the Americas. It benefits you in Africa, Eastern Europe, and Asia. Every single Indian province you own could double it's output (if trade companies as it should be, technically only tax, manpower and force limit are doubled, production has a smaller % increase due to the penalty being reduced in TCs). If you have a huge multi-continent spanning empire that's going to make a big difference.

I often take it as Russia. Not to colonise, don't need to with Siberian frontiers. Just to buff every single Siberian province I have. And later when I start conquering China it will make all of those provinces better too. The benefits aren't just for colonising the Americas.

Edit: Oh and there are a few reasons why it's better to colonise yourself rather than rely on the AI. Particularly if you're playing as England/GB. Being able to pick the trade good for colonies is massive! But otherwise, increasing colonial assimilation (something the AI suck at) gives you a permanent goods produced modifier in the province. Colonies you make yourself often act a few production dev points higher than the AI ones. Can be especially true in mods, I've been playing quite a bit of Anbennar lately and the high native numbers in some provinces there means you can produce a province that's effectively 5 prod dev higher than the AI equivalent just due to assimilation.

[RCMidas]

Siberian Frontiers require expenditure of DIP mana, which is a rarer resource than the money you make back from taking Expansion ideas and lowering territory autonomy.

[Kapika96]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

Siberian Frontiers require expenditure of DIP mana, which is a rarer resource than the money you make back from taking Expansion ideas and lowering territory autonomy.

You're going to make the Siberian frontiers regardless of what idea group you take though, so that isn't really relevant.

Actually, taking expansion ideas would allow you to colonise Siberia without using frontiers if you're that against them.

[bri]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

Originally posted by RCMidas:

Siberian Frontiers require expenditure of DIP mana, which is a rarer resource than the money you make back from taking Expansion ideas and lowering territory autonomy.

You're going to make the Siberian frontiers regardless of what idea group you take though, so that isn't really relevant.

Actually, taking expansion ideas would allow you to colonise Siberia without using frontiers if you're that against them.

Yes, and that's what I do. I have better uses for my diplo mana than slower growing than they should be colonies. In fact, if it wasn't for losing missions I'd go for Ruthenia over Russia every time, in part because of the wasted idea slot that is SF when I could instead have something useful...

[Marquoz]

Originally posted by SunDriedSheet:

The point I am trying to make is that colonization is simply not beneficial, not only you need at least 1 idea group that will allow you to do that, but you also have to pay a lot of money in colonial maintenance to build up your colonies into full provinces. So why would you do that if you can simply let other colonizers do all the work and then you simply take it from them at highly reduced cost.

Well, if you want to look at the game in terms of maximizing efficiency above all else, you should never play as anyone but Oirat. Then you conquer the world by before 1600--earlier, if you push it and/or save scum. When you get tired of Oirat, you can switch to Austria, the Mughals, a weaker horde, the Ottomans, or whatever.

But any nation in player hands can pull off a world conquest, and going colonial doesn't stop Spain or anyone else from succeeding. It may not be the fastest most efficient approach, but it's still powerful and fun.

Your call.

[Triple G]

If You want to play a colonizer, i´d go with both idea groups.

If You´re playing somewhere with with uncolonized land nearby - and You want to have it, i´d choose expansion ideas. Like in South East Asia, or Siberia, or Africa - or when starting in the Americas. Like as Ming i would want to have Taiwan, for the sake of it, and maybe even get the idea group only for these 3 provinces.

Else both ideas aren´t very useful for anything, but to have these colonists. And playing as a colonizer can be super powerful and lead to great riches. It´s not necessary though, as said above: if it´s about efficiency You would play as someone else, to get much better positions, to then conquer the colonizers to get their colonial nations for free - You don´t attack the colonial nations, or try to get something off of them - You want to fully annex the colonizer, and then Your new colonial nations colonize for themselves. And if it´s about a world conquest, it perhaps also depends a bit on the faith. If You conquer Spain as the Ottomans You would need to convert all the provinces in their colonial regions, or change to catholic.

[Totally Innocent Chatbot]

Originally posted by bri:

Originally posted by Kapika96:

You're going to make the Siberian frontiers regardless of what idea group you take though, so that isn't really relevant.

Actually, taking expansion ideas would allow you to colonise Siberia without using frontiers if you're that against them.

Yes, and that's what I do. I have better uses for my diplo mana than slower growing than they should be colonies. In fact, if it wasn't for losing missions I'd go for Ruthenia over Russia every time, in part because of the wasted idea slot that is SF when I could instead have something useful...

Sure, so instead you waste thousands of admin mana taking a full Idea Group that has a whole two or three useful bonuses. Even taking just the very first Expansion Idea for the one colonist costs as many monarch points as a whole 20 Siberian Frontiers.

Also, slower than they should be? Seriously? In my experience Siberian Frontiers settle at least twice as fast as regular colonies, at least in the early game.

[RCMidas]

Expansion remains useful afterwards and is a decent pick for any game that goes on long enough, whether or not you are doing any colonising with them at all. Siberian Frontiers have decidedly limited use, though their idea is good in principle.

[Octopuses]

I think rushing colonization while PUing other large countries is a legit strategy.

[Marquoz]

Originally posted by Totally Innocent Chatbot:

Originally posted by bri:

Yes, and that's what I do. I have better uses for my diplo mana than slower growing than they should be colonies. In fact, if it wasn't for losing missions I'd go for Ruthenia over Russia every time, in part because of the wasted idea slot that is SF when I could instead have something useful...

Sure, so instead you waste thousands of admin mana taking a full Idea Group that has a whole two or three useful bonuses.

Expansion is never a waste. It's on my "must have" list for any nation, even those that don't benefit from colonists until the mid game. The -10% minimum autonomy in territories power is one of those "so strong if the rest of the idea group was blank I'd still take it just for that" powers. It's not far below Diplo's warscore cost reduction, Admin's CCR, and Religious's Deus Vult. The fact that Expansion has many useful ideas on top of that makes the group superb.

The above paragraph assumes you're blobbing out and have TCs all over the map, of course.

[Totally Innocent Chatbot]

Originally posted by Marquoz:

Originally posted by Totally Innocent Chatbot:

Sure, so instead you waste thousands of admin mana taking a full Idea Group that has a whole two or three useful bonuses.

Expansion is never a waste. It's on my "must have" list for any nation, even those that don't benefit from colonists until the mid game. The -10% minimum autonomy in territories power is one of those "so strong if the rest of the idea group was blank I'd still take it just for that" powers. It's not far below Diplo's warscore cost reduction, Admin's CCR, and Religious's Deus Vult. The fact that Expansion has many useful ideas on top of that makes the group superb.

The above paragraph assumes you're blobbing out and have TCs all over the map, of course.

Except you've said in the past that you TC everything. One of the not-well-documented effects of Trade Companies is that the effects of Local Autonomy on production income are halved. So the -10% minimum autonomy in territories is only "double the income" for tax and manpower, the parts that don't really matter in non-stated provinces. For production, you're only looking at an effective reduction from 50% local autonomy to 45%, hardly game-breaking. And for trade, the penalty to local trade power from autonomy is removed entirely by virtue of simply being in a trade company.