France

[Lotreanca]

Why they had to destroy France this bad. From what i recall, France never ever in their history been this fragmentated or had more then one vassal, except Napoleon time when had client states.

Such a waste of diplo...

[Kago™².]

Its pretty much the same France as when the game first launched

[Kapika96]

France is a lot stronger than it used to be. The vassal swarm increases its power, it's not a nerf.

And it's not because they had "more than 1 vassal", it's to show that they had little centralised power. The dukes had a large degree of autonomy so having them all as part of a single unified country isn't entirely accurate.

Plus they start with the "French Duchies" privilege which gives +3 diplo slots, so they're hardly wasted since they get extras to account for the vassals anyway.

[Malvastor]

From what I gather it's trying to model the relatively unconsolidated monarchy of the time, where France really was a feudal state composed of the king's lands and those of his vassals.

[Lara]

You are correct. The current state of EU4 is not very realistic but more realism would actually lead to an opposite result than what you are suggesting.

If you play EU4 you could get the impression, that there already existed something like modern states in the 15 century, which are fully (or to a very large degree) under control of the king. In the 15th century this was clearly not the case. Nations are unrealistic in EU4, because you have too few vassals, not too many. Duchies were very powerful and influental, much more than they are currently in EU4. This system called feudalism persisted until the 18/19th century. The rise of modern nation states did not really start before this time, maybe only with a little step into this direction in the era of absolutism.

If you want it have realistic, your "nation" would consist of almost only vassals.

[Tasty Bunny]

Originally posted by YoDiac:

From what i recall, France never ever in their history been this fragmentated

Than you are clearly got it wrong. France at the time of EU4 was fragmented as f*ck by numerous duchy with various right and title. France often considered where feudalism maintained longest relevance among major european nation

[Azunai]

imo the only nerf to france is the burgundy inheritance outcome that forces them into a war against the emperor and all his allies.

that can *really* screw them over if they aren't in a good shape to win that war. i've seen france getting demolished and later on completely deleted from the map after that event several times.

the vassal thingy at the start is just a minor flavor adjustment. sure they'd be even stronger if the vassals were already integrated at the start, but AI france usually integrates them soon anyway, so it just slows them down slightly in the first 20 years or so.

[Malvastor]

Originally posted by Azunai:

sure they'd be even stronger if the vassals were already integrated at the start

Not necessarily, as mentioned vassal swarms can be pretty powerful.

[bri]

the vassal thingy at the start is just a minor flavor adjustment. sure they'd be even stronger if the vassals were already integrated at the start, but AI france usually integrates them soon anyway, so it just slows them down slightly in the first 20 years or so.

Which is only the most important part of the game...

In the current patch it's around 40/60 or worse that France manages to knock England off the continent and become a power. The only country I see generally under-performing compared to history in the current patch more than France is the Ottomans.

[Brady Gunner]

France is doing better than ever in my games. Frequently invading Great Britain on their own isles. Scotland also seems to be more useful as a result of that it seems.

Burgundy seems to lose to France in wars more often also. Only nerf that France really got was that the unholy alliance between France and Ottomans never happens because of the -50 opinions modifier due to completely different religious group as in the past I think it was -10 or -20.

[Medicles]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

France is a lot stronger than it used to be. The vassal swarm increases its power, it's not a nerf.

In the hand of the player, yes.

In the hand of the ai its a big nerf.

The vassals take too many diplo-slots, which results in France having no significant allies early on, usually only Provence and Scotland. The amount of vassals also means no real coherent army for France, which makes it fairly easy to pick off small stacks. Its considerably easy to win early wars against France as England or Burgundy alone, basically a free-win if you can drag someone like Aragon into the war too.

[d_jakowenko]

Originally posted by Medicles:

Originally posted by Kapika96:

France is a lot stronger than it used to be. The vassal swarm increases its power, it's not a nerf.

In the hand of the player, yes.

In the hand of the ai its a big nerf.

Agreed. France was much more powerful in older versions.

[Ángel]

Originally posted by bri:

The only country I see generally under-performing compared to history in the current patch more than France is the Ottomans.

Take a look to Spain then

[Medicles]

Originally posted by Herr Sexy Katalonien:

Take a look to Spain then

Spain is doing its usual colonisation game in all my runs.

[bri]

Originally posted by Medicles:

Originally posted by Herr Sexy Katalonien:

Take a look to Spain then

Spain is doing its usual colonisation game in all my runs.

Yeah, Spain only struggles if they refuse or don't get the IW event, otherwise they are right up there with the wps

[todonnell81]

regardless of how well it contributes to game balance, you've got your history all wrong. France was notoriously decentralized through most of the high and late middle ages, even into the early modern period. that was why they preformed so poorly for most of the 100 Year's War, the dukes were prone to either fight amongst themselves, like those of Burgundy and Armagnac, or straight up take up arms against the king of france himself, like the Burgundians later did after the aforementioned civil war with Armagnac, hence Burgundy's independence at the start of the game