Optimal idea groups.

[WhiskeyWerewolf]

I've been experimenting some with Idea Groups, to figure out which ones are the best ones for a balanced nations. I've come to that the best ones to start with would be Innovative, Quality and Diplomatic, followed by Trade, Defensive and Naval.

Of course, there are situations where these should be something else, for example with colonizing, or if you're landlocked there's no use for Naval.

I find that Innovative is extremely useful early game, because it helps you maintain prestige, it helps enourmously with keeping tradition, and the extra Religious Unity helps a ton during the Protestant Reformation. Also, Innovative has an event that grants you 5% cheaper tech for some years, which helps you save points, and they get three events each giving you 50 points in a category.

Any opinions on this, I'd also like to hear what you guys think is the best setup, so I may be able to improve my own.

[Ramza Paradise]

I find Offensive and Diplomatic are must's early on in non-colonial nations.

My Italy play through I took Diplo first and was able to keep France as my friend until 1821.

Offensive is, IMO, the best Military idea. Most of the AI take this early for Forced March, which is awesome, as well as the ideas being very good.

[WhiskeyWerewolf]

WalrusParadise a écrit :

I find Offensive and Diplomatic are must's early on in non-colonial nations.

My Italy play through I took Diplo first and was able to keep France as my friend until 1821.

Offensive is, IMO, the best Military idea. Most of the AI take this early for Forced March, which is awesome, as well as the ideas being very good.

You do have a point with getting access to Forced March early on, but I found Quality to be the best to start with, to get that little upper-hand in the early game.

[Nubnut]

Aristocratic is also beneficial now with it's bonuses to military tech. An extra leader for free, increased cavalry ability (at reduced cost), increased vassal income, an extra diplomat and +25% to manpower.

[freestyler-rs]

There is no optimum idea set. It depends on the strategical situation. For Ottomans I feel Administrative is a must-have for rapid expansion. I took it as the first idea group. The reduced Merc costs and reduced coring costs are extreme. the production efficiency and the other little bonusses are a nice addition. Add Innovative, Aristocratic and Diplomatic and you're set. I'd never do that as Portugal though. First one for them is Exploration, no discussions...

[Dustpuppy]

Administrative
Trade/Naval or Exploration
Defensive (Offensive if Prussia)
Innovative
Offensive (Quality if Prussia)
Trade or Naval
Economic or Expansion
Quality (Quantity or Expansion if Prussia)

I like administrative as my first idea for the reduced coring cost. Bigger is better, and I don't like wasting admin points. I usually just take it to the second idea before going for admin 7 for the diplomatic idea. The discount for mercenaries is nice in a pinch. If your manpower hits 0 then fielding a stack of 15-20k mercs can be the only thing between you and annihilation, but that gets expensive. The extra production also contributes to trade, production and manpower.

Main thing I like about innovative is that it lets me put the AI into a perma war. The reduced war exhaustion lowers revolt risk and generally means a 5-10% core cost reduction. Defensive + Quality enable a decision to accomplish the same thing, but at a steep cost.

[robert.steven.marshall]

I would agree with Innovative as a good all rounder for most nations. It does mean you can win a war (completely siege every province) then wait . . . and wait . . . and wait and then when you declare peace the opposition are bankrupt. covered in rebels and generally in five years you have no problems attacking again. Innovative also has some decent tech reducing "random events".

Quality is also my favourite Military idea.

However I tend to avoid an Admin idea as the first idea as I need the points for coring/stability. I usually end up going for a dilpo idea first as I find those points the least valuable of the three but it varies so much. It used to be Expansion almost every time when it was in the Diplo tree.

[freestyler-rs]

admin reduces coring costs, effectively refinancing itself over time. just saying ;)

[Andyman119]

if you're in a tight military situation fighting a larger nation, quality is a must early on to sqeeze the most out of each troop until around 1550. if you're in the HRE you can get some advantage and possibly take emperor if you take diplo, though the austrians have a pretty firm hold in 1444. as any nation in western europe, colonial can make piles of money if you beat the spanish to the punch on the americas, or in Africa. taking aristocratic to get the most out of cavalry is also a huge benefit, and can shape your whole style of warfare, for example looking at real life Sweden we see that they were the kings of cavalry, all because they had a powerful aristocratic class and an economy that supported it. admin is interesting, but admin points are at a premium early, late game though it can be a real lifesaver. naval is generally to be avoided unless paired with colonial, as it eats your diplomatic points and ships can't siege directly

[Bandit17]

Holstein Gottorp-Romanov a écrit :

You do have a point with getting access to Forced March early on, but I found Quality to be the best to start with, to get that little upper-hand in the early game.

Offensive is better than Quality for so many reasons. Better leaders, manpower and force limits which are all more important early on than the benefits from Quality. Quality is great but just not as good as Offensive imho.

What Ideas are optimal and which are not is really determined by the country being played and the playstyle of the human player. Ex: I despise Quantity. Never ever take it. Not even for OPM's and I do more than just fine without it but some players need that extra forcelimit or manpower to be successful. To each their own as long as it works for you.

Innovative is a great Idea set but some countries would do better taking Expansion as a first admin Idea. Russia or a colonial empire for example.

Offensive is a must have imho but again many countries would be better off taking Aristocratic as their first military Idea. Non-Western tech countries for example who could really use those early shock & cavalry bonuses plus the lovely early free diplomat and the -10% military tech reduction. The +2 legitimacy policy is a lifesaver for those that want to steam roll early via vassal-integration and/or suffer from weak claimed heirs.

So there really are so many ways a player can play one country with regards to it's Idea Groups and it's great when it's not always so easy to choose which one is always the best. Something that was an issue with 1.5 in some regards.

My favorites include Diplomacy, Aristocratic, Offensive, Religious, Innovative, Quality, Trade and Naval. What order and which ones I take depends on the country I'm playing and of course land locked empires differ greatly from colonial empires. To each their own as long as they make it work to their benefit.

[Sir Loin of Steak]

All of these ideas that people have pointed out are fantastic, but one i feel people overlook is espionage. While alone it is weak, when paired with military ideas it can give you edge in any situation. Its not a good base idea, but it can pull its weight late game. it lets you break apart enemies with rebels, ruin their allies opinion, and lift fog of war. Very useful

[WhiskeyWerewolf]

Bandit17 a écrit :

Holstein Gottorp-Romanov a écrit :

You do have a point with getting access to Forced March early on, but I found Quality to be the best to start with, to get that little upper-hand in the early game.

Offensive is a must have imho but again many countries would be better off taking Aristocratic as their first military Idea. Non-Western tech countries for example who could really use those early shock & cavalry bonuses plus the lovely early free diplomat and the -10% military tech reduction. The +2 legitimacy policy is a lifesaver for those that want to steam roll early via vassal-integration and/or suffer from weak claimed heirs.

You are very right with this this, since Eastern nations tend to rely a lot on powerful cavalry and shock. Since the policy also counts for Republican Tradition, you can play a Noble Republic and build up some extremely powerful leaders without having to suffer the usual colossal hit to stability cost.

[WhiskeyWerewolf]

ethansabeast a écrit :

All of these ideas that people have pointed out are fantastic, but one i feel people overlook is espionage. While alone it is weak, when paired with military ideas it can give you edge in any situation. Its not a good base idea, but it can pull its weight late game. it lets you break apart enemies with rebels, ruin their allies opinion, and lift fog of war. Very useful

I took Espionage this game as Muscovy, used Sow Discontent and the enhanced Support Rebels against Commonwealth. Literally every possible nation broke off, and I had every Russian culture province flip to me.

[Yami]

I personally dont like aristotic as it does not fare that well into the late game as compared to the other military ideas imo. Dont like quantity that much as offensive tends to cover it partially(manpower/forcelimit) So my ideal build for military tends to be the remaining 3.

Diplo wise, i tend to take diplomatic as first idea most of the time. then it depends if i need to fight using my ships or not. if need be i would take naval next or else i would take trade. the other one would be my last diplo ideas. Exploration would replace diplo if i m colonising as colonisers tend to not need the diplo tech tree as much.

Admin wise, it depends if i foresee the need to quickly convert religion. if needed( germanic/ baltic/ some asian nations), i would take religious or i will tend to take innovative. for some nations like italy/ottomans/russia, i tend to go admin as i have to war a lot and the reducation in coring cost helps out esp since it stacks with their national ideas.