Forming Netherlands as Burgundy

[Dray Prescot]

When forming Netherlands as Burgundy, if France is still alive, France get all French Region provinces controlled by Burgundy. Since one of the last things Burgundy/Netherlands wants to do is strengthen France, I have been thinking about what to do with them. The idea that seems most promising to me is to sell, trade, or even give them to other countries, preferably so that neither France or Austria can get at them. If you sold, traded or even gave those French Region provinces of Burgundy to either or both Procence and Savoy, you would strengthen one or both of them against France and Austria. so that they live longer. Then maybe some day in the future you might be able to get back some of the provinces back easier than getting them back from France. Does Burgundy/Netherlands keep its cores on those provinces if France gets them?
Another possibilty is giving/trading them to Nevers if it is still around as your vassal. If you form Netherlands as Burgundy, what happens to the French Region provinces controlled by a vassal, i.e. Nevers? If France would still get them, then release Nevers as an independent state before forming Netherlands.
A third possibilty is trading, selling, and giving the provinces to some other some country nearby besides France, Austria, Provence, Savoy, or Nevers. What about the Papal State? Particularly if they still control Avignon. Messing up France's relations with the Papal State and/or a stornger Papal State sounds like a good idea. It is also bad for Austria.
I am wondering if anyone has tried/witnessed some of these possibilities?
Another advantage to Burgundy for forming Netherlands would be to cut off the Burgundian Succession Crisis event. If they are Netherlands, that event can not fire. This actually only matters to Burgundy if they are AI controlled.

[[F@KeR*]]

give it all to neveres and annex them after you formed netherlands .....

[Raider Deci]

I suggest wait with forming netherlands as burgundy until france is killed off so you dont lose any provinces

[Exarch_Alpha]

Don´t know man, if I played Burgundy would be to win as Burgundy. Dominating continental european trade etc.

I don´t know however why Pdox doesn´t make a decision where you regard the dutch as more influent and thus, become Netherlands as Burgundy. Can´t be sillier than all the things about Byzantium.

[mss73055]

It's not too bad if France gets the provinces. As Burgundy you can gather all of the Benelux save 1, and England. With English and Flemish as accepted culture it's not bad at all to reconquer and recore the land you lost.

Edit: the hardest part is getting Liege. If you can get Liege then you can get Paris.

[Dray Prescot]

If Castile is player controlled, then keeping Burgundy alive, possibly as Netherlands, weakens both France and Austria. Which Castile would love to do. In addtion, while Castile is allied and Royal Married to Burgundy, it will sometimes be fighting in northern Italy, where it can mess up Austrian plans, particularly involving Venice and the Papal State. It might even be able to force a weak Austria to release Stryia, which would cripple an Austria which does not have the Burgundian provinces. No more Austrian HRE Emperor or a very weak one ?!
After Castile finishes its Iberian ambitions off (Granada, Aragon, and possibly Portugal), it can then with a strong Burgundy/Netherlands work on tearing appart a weaker than normal France, possibly with English and or Portugese help, as well as Provence ( hard to do) and Savoy, even the Papal State.
In the long run, Castile might regret creating a strong Burgundy/Netherlands rival, but they could also be a strong ally. And then is the Royal Marriage with them: change of dynasty, PU, and inheritance as lovely long term possibilities, as long as the Burgundian Succession (before 1500) can be avoided, or steered to Castile.
In my very first war (as Castile) to support Burgundy (ending in 1451), I helped Venice against Austria, and even captured several Austrian provices (returned in Peace treaty). With a Castilan alliance with Venice, Burgundy, and maybe the Papal State, a weak Austria could be in deep trouble. Let Venice have the Aggressive Expansion and coring problems with Austrian/HRE territory. A strong Venetian ally would nice in the Mediterrean. If Savoy gets in the way, they can be hurt badly. That first war had Castille occupying Provence as well (too bad they got their coastal provinces back in the peace treaty!) That first war was Burgundy, Nevers, its PU states, and Castille against Provence/Lorraine and Austria, and several of the Italian states on both sides. Burgundy took all but Metz from Lorraine in the peace treaty.

[Dray Prescot]

If Nevers can keep them as a vassal, and then be anexxed someday, that sounds like the best plan. Becoming Netherlands will cut off all the Dutch rebellion problems in 1550 to 1650 according to the Wiki. I guess the real question is what National Ideas you want: Burgundy's mercenary centered ones or Netherlands oversea trade ones.

[Dray Prescot]

And then there are all the possibilities for Burgundy/Netherlands with the HRE. I almost never have done anything with/to the HRE. I suspect you would want the mercenary National Ideas to deal with the HRE and northern Germany/Batic/Denmark areas. You will probably be spending a LONG time involved with those areas. However, Netherlands' trade could generate a lot of income to hire those mercenaries, and avoiding the Dutch Rebellion problems from 1550 to 1650 might be helpful. How often does Burgundy pull off HRE Emperor? It should be at least possible, particulrly with a weak Austria. I think Burgundy forming Netherlands might make them a HRE member. That could be a big advantage, if that is how you want to go.

[Dray Prescot]

Finally, a strong Netherlands navy, and easy formation of claims on English territory across the North Sea can open the door to attacking England (but only after France is taken care of). But it will be hard to do if you are constantly tied up on the European mainland.
I think I remember reading in the Wiki that forrming Netherlands makes it a Kingdom, which kicks it (Netherlands however it was formed ) out of the HRE, unless it is an Elector. Oh well, you will have to try to become Emperor from outside the HRE. Unless you can somehow become an elector first, not likely.

[Dray Prescot]

I am dreaming of the Big Yellow Blob (Spain + Burgundy). Actually I think of it as the Big Yellow Amoeba, swallowing France.

[Dray Prescot]

If I ever pull it off, I post my first screen shot.

[Dray Prescot]

Going off line to take care of supper for my parents,They are 84 and 86.

[Dray Prescot]

Unfortunately, forning the Netherlands requires Admin TL 10 as well as the cores on the six provinces, so forming the Netherlands will come way too late (well after 1500) to make any difference to avoiding the Burgundian Sucsession.