Papal States is a worthless ally

[EricB]

So I've tried a few runs in a row as Naples. I'm on attempt #3 right now.

First run I attacked the Papal States and ended up after awhile making them a vassal. Everyone got mad at me for humiliating the Pope and I had a hard time making friends. I ended up quitting that one because I accidentally started a war with a nation I had a truce with. It was someone I had previously allied. I forgot that there's a truce for a little bit after breaking an alliance. Massive AE = coalition = game over :)

2nd time I tried a different approach. Let's ally the Pope instead. That guy is a worthless ally. Every time I wanted to start an offensive war he would say 'no.' It didn't matter that I had favors. It didn't matter that I was at +100 trust. It would say that he likes the country I'm wanting to attack, and that's probably because every one out there is trying to improve relations with the Pope. Worthless ally.

So I'm on attempt #3 now. In this one we're going after the Papal States again. I've had a first war already and took 2 provinces off them. Northern Italy is all in the HRE, and I'm allied to Austria, so I want to leave that territory alone and hopefully it'll leave the HRE eventually. With the Papal States I want to eventually take all their land except Rome. Leave them 1 province and just go around it.

One interesting thing I saw happen in the first run was when I annexed Rome to eliminate the Papal States from the map, the Pope was still there. He was inside my nation sabotaging it. Eventually he said he's leaving this place of sin and he moved to Germany and set up the Papal States there.

Just a comment on that worthless Papal States. I thought if I was their friend they would help me out. He would start offensive wars, but he would never, ever join my wars unless it was against non-Christian nations.

[Preacher]

yeah but at least its realistic

[EricB]

Yeah not complaining. It's an interesting dynamic, and I think it makes the game better.

[priamossz]

Why did you not used him against the Muslims? He will come with you and meanwhile you can enjoy the extra influence points which you can use for nice things like +1 stab or extra tax.

[EricB]

In the 2nd game I was doing that. Perhaps I got a little too aggressive attacking the Muslims, and that's why I resigned that game. I started wars I couldn't win, and also the AI is better with this mod I'm using. It makes the AI smarter tactically. They don't run around the world and leave their own land wide open. They defend their territory better. They also frequently use defensive edicts, which makes it take longer to take their forts, and their choices of what buildings to buy in what province is a lot better. It's called the Difficulty & AI mod in the steam workshop, and it makes the AI better.

[priamossz]

Nice, I might give it a go, maybe after the Anbennar mod game i am playing is finished.

[Maul]

I only ally with them for the sake of getting better relations if I can afford the diplomatic relations for Papal Influence.

[MasterYi]

Don’t attack the Pope as a Catholic and don’t take ROME as a Catholic since it will give you massive penalties. If you must attack him just leave him the one province of Rome.

Just ally the Papal States for increased Papal Influence gain to use Curia buffs. Also makes him take less AE from your expansions.

Don’t ally him as an Offensive ally but rather a Defensive ally. But as Naples you will gain 1 favour with him every year (the fastest) since you are of comparable strength.

I’m in a Naples run too, get all 5 provinces in Sicily which includes Malta from Aragon to complete your mission giving you claims in Northern Greece and Morea. You should ‘ve rivalled Aragon and used this first war to also HUMILATE him to generate more Splendour.

Become Papl Controller (you can scum save each time the pope dies) and either get the -5% dev cost Golden Bull to boost your Capital to 30 dev for the Second Age Obejctive while also speeding up the spread of Renaissance in your Capital. Or choose the -50% Curia Power Costs buff instead.

Attack Epirus, attack and vassalise byzantium, feed Epirot land to Byzantium since he has a core and it is part of the same state.

Attack Tunis, Tlemcen and the 4 Berber Minors, no one cares about AE in North Africa. The only problem you may encounter ia if you and the Ottomans are Rivals and the Magrebi countries are THEATENED by you then they may ally with the Ottos.

I recommend using the Vassals Tripoli and Algiers and vassal feed them as I took Admin Ideas first and managed to complete the 2nd Idea without hindering my expansion.

It is important to complete your mission of building at least 20 galleys, having naval superiority is key placing as a nation at the bottom of the peninsula and having to expand across seas. Also for confronting Venice later, 20 galleys should be enough especially if they haven’t got their +25% galley combat ability ambition.

[EricB]

In this Naples run I got an event to grant independence after several years. The first few years I was just improving relations with important nations. Then I got independence.

When that happened I got an alliance with Castille first since they were rivaled to Aragon, and I rivaled Aragon and the Papal States. I got an alliance with Provence too since they were rivaling the Papal States.

Castille was in a war with Grenada, Morocco, and its vassals so I had to wait for that war to finish because I didn't want to take on Aragon alone. I got an alliance with Austria while waiting, then Hungary because I'll need some help later vs Ottomans.

When Castille finished its war, shortly after that I declared war on Aragon and Castille/Naples totally destroyed them to get a 99% war score. I took all of Sicily, Malta, and 2 provinces in Sardinia that I could reach via claims.

Next war was vs Papal States where I got Provence to join. That one was more even but we still won and I got a couple of Italian provinces.

Austria is in a big war with Venice right now and winning. Venice has a guarantee on Albania, but won't help them since they are in a lot of trouble with Austria at the moment. So, that's where I'm going next. They are allied with Epirus, so I'll get Albania and Epirus in what should be an easy war next. Byzantium has already been wiped out by the Ottomans.

Later I want to get Greece and then release Byzantium as a vassal, but going against the Ottomans is tricky, especially with this improved AI mod.

[MasterYi]

Originally posted by EricB:

In this Naples run I got an event to grant independence after several years. The first few years I was just improving relations with important nations. Then I got independence.

When that happened I got an alliance with Castille first since they were rivaled to Aragon, and I rivaled Aragon and the Papal States. I got an alliance with Provence too since they were rivaling the Papal States.

Castille was in a war with Grenada, Morocco, and its vassals so I had to wait for that war to finish because I didn't want to take on Aragon alone. I got an alliance with Austria while waiting, then Hungary because I'll need some help later vs Ottomans.

When Castille finished its war, shortly after that I declared war on Aragon and Castille/Naples totally destroyed them to get a 99% war score. I took all of Sicily, Malta, and 2 provinces in Sardinia that I could reach via claims.

Next war was vs Papal States where I got Provence to join. That one was more even but we still won and I got a couple of Italian provinces.

Austria is in a big war with Venice right now and winning. Venice has a guarantee on Albania, but won't help them since they are in a lot of trouble with Austria at the moment. So, that's where I'm going next. They are allied with Epirus, so I'll get Albania and Epirus in what should be an easy war next. Byzantium has already been wiped out by the Ottomans.

Later I want to get Greece and then release Byzantium as a vassal, but going against the Ottomans is tricky, especially with this improved AI mod.

Usually I don’t like taking non-core provinces in Reconquest wars because of the extra diplo cost, especially since Naples gets a mission giving perma-claims on the Western Mediterranean Islands.

You don’t need to wait for Castille, have a fleet of 20 galleys even before you achieve independence and mothball them to not pay so much for being over force limit since Subjects have less force limit.

Use naval superiority to invade Aragon’s Islands and wait for ticking warscore, blockade and destroy ships.

You are losing out on so much Papal Influence by rivalling the Pope. He may even excommunicate you.

For the Ottomans, you should use Naval Barrage with your superior fleet (100 cannons per fort level) to siege down Gellibolu and Constantinople faster.

[EricB]

I took more land in the war with Aragon because I knew it could be my only shot at it for awhile. Castille had a female heir and the Iberian Wedding was coming soon. When that happens, the alliance with Castille is over and those islands fall to Castille/Aragon. As I expected, shortly after the war the Iberian Wedding triggered, and Castille broke the alliance. It's a race to grab as much land as possible from Aragon before the Iberian Wedding.

Yeah I'm not sure how to handle the Pope situation with Naples. In my first run I was really aggressive and conquered them and was excommunicated multiple times. It was hard to find allies with that. I was also boxed in in that first run. I allied with Castille and immediately they declared a war on Aragon - giving me just 1 province in Sicily in the peace deal - then the Iberian Wedding happened right after that. I was stuck with Messina only for forever and couldn't get to Africa without battling through Spain first who was also allied with Austrla. I ended up expanding north and making a lot of enemies there. lol

2nd run I tried the diplomatic approach with the Papal States and allied them. Then, they were a worthless ally for any offensive war.

I figured for the 3rd run I'd try the first approach again except not taking Rome this time. That's where a lot of the problems came from. The plan is to take their land over 2 wars. By then I'll eclipse them as a rival and go elsewhere. Maybe have a 3rd war with them later on when maybe they are just an ally of someone else and get them to remove any cores they have in the land they used to have. Then, work on improving relations with them and leaving them as a one province country for awhile until I can form Italy. When it's close to getting Italy annex Rome.

But the expansion in northern Italy is quite slow due to such high development provinces in the Tuscany, Milan, Genoa, Venice areas. I'm content with 1 or 2 provinces per war in those areas.

[EricB]

BTW...what idea groups do you think are good for Naples?

In the first couple of games I went with Maritime first because I wanted a dominant navy in the Med. It was pretty good. That last one that allows your ships to auto-repair without going into port is really strong for maintaining blockades. The +50% naval force limit is good too for getting a whole lot of galleys.

In the first one I went with Defensive. 2nd run I went with Quantity. First run I went with Religious to deal with the Orthodox/Muslim provinces. 2nd one I went with Innovative.

In this new one I tried something different and went with Trade first as I found that the biggest barrier to building a build army/navy early is just lack of income. I haven't tried Trade before, so I thought I'd give it a whirl. I'm planning on Quantity 2nd, then probably Religious.

[bri]

Diplomatic and/or influence ideas are good for areas where you're worrying a lot about AE such as around the HRE and northern Italy. Economic isn't a bad option either.

"Having a strong navy" is mostly a noob trap as most wars aren't won/lost due to anything naval; even conquering England is doable without actually winning any battles at sea (you just need to keep a couple fights going long enough to unload a stack of troops).

[EricB]

so I fell into the noob trap...lol :)

I think navies would be more relevant if military access was harder to come by. I've found the easiest way to handle military access is just to have an AI ally, no matter how small they are. They'll request access to everything for me.

I wanted the navy so that I could prevent Spain or the Ottomans from landing in Italy via transports and to be able to move units around quickly.

How does Diplomatic/Influence help with AE? Espionage is the one with the AE reduction in it. Usually I don't have a problem with Improving relations. I set 1 or 2 diplomats to automate improving with neighbors once I'm past the beginning stages of the game. When I do that, I tend to have few problems. Then, I'll have about 1 diplomat (sometimes 2) that I manually control to do things like build spy networks or target a potential ally.

Also, what's the best way to deal with large stacks of enemy units. I see them with death stacks. Just run away from those? I see the Ottomans with stacks like 60K when I'm running around with 2 armies of 15K each. Those things will stack-wipe me. That's also why I like having a good navy. Makes it easier to run away from the death stack.

I was once fighting a war with Spain with France as an ally (2nd Naples run). We were in Iberia seiging everything. Then Spain came right at me with everything they had. I was on the coast around Valencia. I saw that swords crossing icon pop up coming at my army. Panic! Pause the game! What are my options here?! Can't run away as there isn't time. Quick! Use the navy to evacuate. I did that and it worked! lol But I probably should have left earlier and been paying attention to where the death stack was.

[Kapika96]

FYI you only get the penalties for taking Rome or vassalising the pope if you're catholic. Being able to take Rome is one of the best reasons to go protestant, especially if you're playing in Italy/Spain.

[MasterYi]

Originally posted by EricB:

so I fell into the noob trap...lol :)

I think navies would be more relevant if military access was harder to come by. I've found the easiest way to handle military access is just to have an AI ally, no matter how small they are. They'll request access to everything for me.

I wanted the navy so that I could prevent Spain or the Ottomans from landing in Italy via transports and to be able to move units around quickly.

How does Diplomatic/Influence help with AE? Espionage is the one with the AE reduction in it. Usually I don't have a problem with Improving relations. I set 1 or 2 diplomats to automate improving with neighbors once I'm past the beginning stages of the game. When I do that, I tend to have few problems. Then, I'll have about 1 diplomat (sometimes 2) that I manually control to do things like build spy networks or target a potential ally.

Also, what's the best way to deal with large stacks of enemy units. I see them with death stacks. Just run away from those? I see the Ottomans with stacks like 60K when I'm running around with 2 armies of 15K each. Those things will stack-wipe me. That's also why I like having a good navy. Makes it easier to run away from the death stack.

I was once fighting a war with Spain with France as an ally (2nd Naples run). We were in Iberia seiging everything. Then Spain came right at me with everything they had. I was on the coast around Valencia. I saw that swords crossing icon pop up coming at my army. Panic! Pause the game! What are my options here?! Can't run away as there isn't time. Quick! Use the navy to evacuate. I did that and it worked! lol But I probably should have left earlier and been paying attention to where the death stack was.

You don’t even need an AI ally or a Subject to request military access, usually your AI Enemy will request access which automatically gives you access too.

Diplomatic Ideas gives:

+2 Diplomats: More diplomats means more improving relations to prevent countries joining a coalition. Also for fabricating claims which reduces AE for claimed provinces, coring cost and time, as well as no diplo cost for Unjustified Demands.

+1 Diplo Relation: Can make a new subject to Vassal Feed, make new allies to reduce AE they take and to make outraged countries scared to form a coalition.

+25% Improve Relations: The higher this modifier is, the faster AE decays (base is 2.0 per year)

+2 Diplomatic Reputation: Countries will be more likely to accept diplomatic interactions. Faster to integrate Subjects.

-20% Province War Score Cost: Can take more land, possibly able to one shot medium sized countries.

-10% Diplo Tech Cost: Saving MP is always good.

Bonus: Negate -1 Stability for diplomatic actions, useful for breaking royal marriages, claiming thrones, changing Marches back to Vassals.

Influence have more sub-par Ideas but I take it for the -25% diplo annexation cost. And the policy it gives with Admin Ideas is another -20% diplo annexation cost.
The Bonus -50% Unjustified Demands also saves diplo if you can’t use Deus Veult or Imperialism.

I like taking Admin first, expand using Vassals until I get -25% CCR, start expanding myself, finish Admin and Influence Ideas then start annexing Vassals.

Best way to deal with large stacks is to avoid them, hope they split up and use scorch earth to catch armies out of position. If 2 Ottoman armies are moving together (not merged) then u can scorch the province they are heading to, wait until 1 of the armies is movement locked then move in to attack the slower army.

Note that the AI will always target the weaker member in a war, so if you opened a 2 front war with the Ottomans while weaker, stay on the same side as your ally. But if you are stronger than your ally just let then tank and you free siege the other side.

Try to call Castile in to your war against Aragon instead letting him call you.
You could also decline the Call to Arms and declare your own separate war at the same time.
Or you could peace out Aragon separate at the expense of Diplo points and losing trust with Castile.

Edit: Navy quality doesn’t matter, numbers win. Especially early game where your enemies shouldn’t have a full combat width of ships. You can build a flagship and choose: Increased Engagement Width and Moral of Fleet. For the 3rd Flagship Bonus you can choose either +50% Cannons, trade power per ship, or Ship Durability.