economic base stopping me from vassalizing countrys?

[singingdragonlord]

ok so im playing as the hansa and own all of the provinces in the lubeck trade node, make 100+ ducats each month, have over 14K saved up and yet its my economical base thats stopping me from vassalizing small HRE members. Is there something im missing or does having better income negatively effect vassalization?

[Laladen]

I had a similar thing happen as England trying to vassalize Scotland. I didn't understand the math behind me not being able to vassalize them. I tried developing my base tax in a few provinces and it didnt change the numbers.

[691neil]

The math is in the wiki, it is not easy to follow.

http://www.eu4wiki.com/Vassal

Basically you need to be a lot bigger than your target (see the table in the wiki) to avoid a negative modifier.

e.g if you have 200 base tax the biggest base tax with no negative economic modifier is 11. At 250 base tax it is 12 . You can see that you need to add a lot to your base tax to make any difference. BTW the math is not linear (i.e it is not always 50 to 1)

[Black_Rat]

Also note that your economical base is your Tax and Production... NOT including your trade income.

[Battlefleur]

Originally posted by Black_Rat:

Also note that your economical base is your Tax and Production... NOT including your trade income.

Its also doesn't including your Tax and Production income only your, and your vassals, base Tax/Production development in comparison to the Tax/Production development of the nation you want to have as your vassal.

[the_panther]

I noticed that the Common Sense patch added a huge negative for diplomatic vassalizing HRE members. It used to be that France or Burgundy could diplo-vassalize 1 and 2 HRE province nations with ease. But not anymore.

As far as military vassalization, it was strongly skewed when they introduced development level. Because it is non-linear, the old enforcement decisions no longer holds. The Wiki has not been updated and base tax no longer is used for most decisions.

For example, an old 5 base tax OPM had a 25 negative when using decisions that require the square law. Now, the same nation might have only 3 base tax, but it can easily have 3 production and 2 manpower, giving an 8 total development level. Eight squared is 64, which is way more than twice the old method, despite having a lower base tax. Because the player positives for decisions are typically linear, you now have to be WAAAY stronger than before for enforcing many decisions.

The new development levels have also significantly affected many other things, like subject revolt risk, coring costs, and even diplo points costs to enfore war demands.

I am really hoping they roll back some of the excessive costs from the new development level based math when the 1.13 patch is released.

[Kelldath]

Originally posted by the_panther:

For example, an old 5 base tax OPM had a 25 negative when using decisions that require the square law. Now, the same nation might have only 3 base tax, but it can easily have 3 production and 2 manpower, giving an 8 total development level. Eight squared is 64, which is way more than twice the old method, despite having a lower base tax. Because the player positives for decisions are typically linear, you now have to be WAAAY stronger than before for enforcing many decisions.

That is true if you forget that the major power also switched to development values. And if they had around 25 base tax before, they can now easily have 25 production too.
However, if both economies are modifier in the same proportions, the fact that the smaller nation's economy is squared will mean that your modifier to vassalize them will be lower anyway, just not by that much.
Also, military development is not taken into account.

Originally posted by the_panther:

I am really hoping they roll back some of the excessive costs from the new development level based math when the 1.13 patch is released.

One week into 1.12 they lowered diplo-annex from 10 to 8 DIP per development, while keeping coring to 10 ADM per development.
In 1.13 this doesn't change, but the aggressive expension per development point is doubled, so it goes the other way.

[Caeser Maximus]

This is a great conversation...There needs to be a reconsideration on this. When you have close to 100 provinces and the minor has but a few...it can be rather difficult to make them a vassel. I understand making it hard for France and anyone vassalizing the HRE members, but still... Keep working on it Europa Team.

[the_panther]

Originally posted by Kelldath:

That is true if you forget that the major power also switched to development values. And if they had around 25 base tax before, they can now easily have 25 production too.
However, if both economies are modifier in the same proportions, the fact that the smaller nation's economy is squared will mean that your modifier to vassalize them will be lower anyway, just not by that much.
Also, military development is not taken into account.

That is true only for linear items. However, in the old days, and likely still true today, many items were not linear when comparing might. The smaller nation had things like squares for the denominator while the larger nation had first order values times a fixed constant for the numerator. Using squared larger values due to the change over to development instead of base tax certainly explains why it is much harder now to annex small nations.

Plus, are you certain they do not use development level for pretty much everything? Do you have a text file or code which shows that military levels are not used? Where did you hear this from?

Originally posted by Kelldath:

One week into 1.12 they lowered diplo-annex from 10 to 8 DIP per development, while keeping coring to 10 ADM per development.
In 1.13 this doesn't change, but the aggressive expension per development point is doubled, so it goes the other way.

This is VERY bad news. I read on the forum that someone participating in the beta said they were experimenting in using a reduced value for coring, something less than 10D. I sure hope so, for the excessive coring costs is really reducing the ability to expand rapidly like that needed for WC. I would be happy with a doubling of AE if they cut coring costs in half. When you want to expand rapidly, you are pretty much forced to set focus on admin and never change it.

The game is so unbalanced in that you usually have plenty of left over military points but are always short on admin points if you plan on doing any kind of expanding. And many achievements require rapid expansion. Not to mention it is easy to fill 3 military idea groups but costly to fill even 1 admin idea group.

If you are correct, this will surely start me looking for my next game.