Byzantine alternate history culture

[Emperor of the United States]

So I was looking at the byzantine troops given to you with the purple phoenix dlc, and was intriged by what seemed to be turkish influence. The reson is obvious; that turkish culture in anatolia will shake things up. However, that only raised more questions; what would byzantine society look like if they were able to not only survive but spread to anatolia and beyond.

[Blue Knight™]

Probably the same as the were before , Roman

[Emperor of the United States]

Doubtful. By 1444, the Roman's had gone far from their roots. Fourhundred years of dealing with muslim turks, egyptions, persians ect. will significanlty change a culture. I have a few ideas for Peramiters;
1. dress
2. food
3. religion(like, how would their version of christianity be diffrent. Russian christianity was vastly diffrent from other countries
4. food
5. politics.
These are just some ideas to work with, and if you have other peramiters, please share. I also don't know a lot about all of these things(just working on high school), so I am hoping there are some more learned eu4 players that could assist with this discusion.

[Blue Knight™]

No they havernt .. the Byzantie Empire , or The Roman Empire , was still roman and stubborn, some of the reaons why they were so lost when they started was because they couldnt evolve into a better state , they'd still be as stubborn as even , mabey yes using pikes but still looking similar to the motif of the Roman auxilary ,with the Cataphract and light cav , then with guns they would keep the Royal Purple with probalby yes a turban since they would of had muslim population .. but without that they would look much like the Italians , They would stay the the intelectual captial with arts crafts and all sorts , while Europe would stay the same , since the Byzantines scoalrs running from Constantinople went to italy and ended the Dark age .

for number 3 , Russian Orthodox .. is literally just the side kick of Easter Orthodoxy (which is the Byzantines religion)

Oh and for 5 , it wouldnt change , it would stay an Emperor and they would stay as stubborn as ever to keep Rome the same as it always was , and their food would stay like it always had been :l

[Tiny Tyrant]

If they had survived and expanded they probably would have kept their society the way it was instead of being influenced by others. Which would've been almost entirely Greek, not Latin. They spoke and wrote their laws/Bibles in Greek, they had Greek emperors, Greek food, etc. They were Greeks, in every respect but name.

The only thing "Roman" about Byzantium in the 1300 and 1400s were its code of laws, which were based off of the original Empire. And that influence can honestly be ignored because half of Europe AND the Middle East, including the Turks, based their laws off Rome too, mixed with feudal and/or Islamic laws. The Sultanate of Rum is note worthy example of this.

The Byzantine claim of being Roman is only slightly more legitimate than Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire. The actual Romans gave the majority of the power in the Eastern half to the Greeks living there, even before the Western Roman Empire fell the Eastern half was pratically its own Empire with its own languange and culture. Which is why it's government was completely unhindered when ze Germans sacked Rome. They also held back their own Barbarians at the Danube in a more effective way.

If they actually expanded they would've most likely forced Greek Orthodoxy, dress, and Culture on the peoples they conquered. Under pain of death or exile, mostly because of how the Turkish invasions left the Greeks jaded, even to this day they don't trust Turks. And, because there was still a significant Greek minority still living in Anatolia to support them.

So probably no turbans, alas.

Also, those unit skins are ugly af imo. They look like three year olds trying to dress up as Aladdin.

[Blue Knight™]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Margrave:

If they had survived and expanded they probably would have kept their society the way it was instead of being influenced by others. Which would've been almost entirely Greek, not Latin. They spoke and wrote their laws/Bibles in Greek, they had Greek emperors, Greek food, etc. They were Greeks, in every respect but name.

The only thing "Roman" about Byzantium in the 1300 and 1400s were its code of laws, which were based off of the original Empire. And that influence can honestly be ignored because half of Europe AND the Middle East, including the Turks, based their laws off Rome too. Sultanate of Rum is note worthy.

The Byzantine claim of being Roman is only slightly more legitimate than Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire. The actual Romans gave the majority of the power in the Eastern half to the Greeks living there, even before the Western Roman Empire fell the Eastern half was pratically its own Empire with its own languange and culture. Which is why it's government was completely unhindered when ze Germans sacked Rome.

If they actually expanded they would've most likely forced Greek Orthodoxy, dress, and Culture on the peoples they conquered. Under pain of death or exile, mostly because of how the Turkish invasions left the Greeks jaded, even to this day they don't trust Turks. And, because there was still a significant Greek minority still living in Anatolia to support them.

So probably no turbans, alas.

Also, those unit skins are ugly af imo. They look like three year olds trying to dress up as Aladdin.

Sorry to disagree on one thing but ... yes they were greeks but , if you were to go back and ask them " are you Roman" they would still say yes , because thats how stubborn they were , they beleived the Roman empire hadnt fallen .. because they were the Roman empire , and were Roman not Greek , Anatolian ,Bulgarian etc they only thought that once they started to get their own independence , like th Bulgars and Serbs did , the ones that stayed Loyal were 100% (in their mind) and to be fair in our minds aswell since we should respect their wishes .. Roman

[Tiny Tyrant]

The only people who though of themselves as Romans were the aritsocrats and royals, and even they ditched Latin in favor of Greek. Sure, they claimed to be the Roman empire but that doesn't mean that they were or that we should view them as such. If we did, then we'd be calling Austrians and Franks Roman too. Since their Dukes claimed the title of Roman Emperor.

The Byzantines could've lived on for a thousand more years claiming to be Roman and it still wouldn't be true. They just knew the weight and prestige that Name carried so they used it, they knew full well they were a Greek Empire, and have been even before Rome fell.

Also, don't apologize for disagreeing with someone, its not wrong or a crime.

[Blue Knight™]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Margrave:

The only people who though of themselves as Romans were the aritsocrats and royals, and even they ditched Latin in favor of Greek. Sure, they claimed to be the Roman empire but that doesn't mean that they were or that we should view them as such. If we did, then we'd be calling Austrians and Franks Roman too. Since their Dukes claimed the title of Roman Emperor.

The Byzantines could've lived on for a thousand more years claiming to be Roman and it still wouldn't be true. They just knew the weight and prestige that Name carried so they used it, they knew full well they were a Greek Empire, and have been even before Rome fell.

Also, don't apologize for disagreeing with someone, its not wrong or a crime.

I just didnt want to come across as a ♥♥♥♥ .. because im quite use to Total War forums... and they arent friendly

I think a lowly peasant would still think themslf Roman while you see the Imperial Purple roaming around , mabey off the far borders where people were less interested in but during a battle they wouldnt do " Here my men we are about to be destoryed by "enter army here" but we are Greek ,Bulgarians, Serbians, Vagarians, Anatolians" one its quite impractical , so the army would also consider themselves Roman (yes for the prestige of the name but they had the most right to call themselves Roman)

But if you hear news of people being called Roman , and your Emperor , Empresses , Doxus , Theme leader calling themselves Roman ... well youd darn well beleive you were aswell . And they were Roman , its only Byzantium and Greek Empire to the Rest of Europe , everything else is Roman , if they were to retake Rome they might have more Ligitimacy but they were still Roman no the less

[Tiny Tyrant]

Since we disagree at the core of what makes someone something it seems, we'll just have to agree to disagree. But damn, even the Turks had a "Roman empire" of their own, the Sultanate of Rum. They claimed to be Roman as Muslims.

And I mean, it is the empire that set the groundwork for the west, albeit not as much as people like to think.

As for the Abassids the important thing for them was being Islamic, they didn't care about anything else. Call them Egyptian, Greek, Persian, Chinese, or Scottish and they'd just nod in agreement and question your sanity silently. But call them Hindu and they'd probably behead you.

Which is a long-winded way of saying the Abassid Caliphate didn't really care what you called them ethnically.

Only recently has the whole Islamic-Pan-Nationalism stopped working. (well like in the past 150 years.) Nowadays ethnicity matters to them, not back then.

[Blue Knight™]

Germany had a Roman Empire , France had a Roman Empire , Italy litterally had the Roman Empire.. its ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ confusing at this point .

and the Abbasids probably wouldnt give any ♥♥♥♥♥ as Mar said .. theyd nod then send you 50 camel caravans... then youd be a Scot Egyptian Greek Perisan Chinese person too

[kesat]

The byzantine culture was already deeply influenced by the greek culture since the 7th century (it was also the official language). There was also quite a strong greek-oriental tradition rising due to the "native" influences. Even if byzantium wouldn't have declined & fallen against the turks they would have still been influenced by them due to trade and diplomacy.

They definitely wouldn't haven been like the romans, because they were already different early on...

[jamie]

they were not called Byzantium or Greek empire untill later on. but yes they did have a claim to be romans as they where the last hold out of a dead empire. what happened to Rome will happen to the United States of America. fell apart from the inside to much like them we are. steps must be taken to fix this problem. as they keep kicking the can down the road this will lead to our down fall.

[Blue Knight™]

Początkowo opublikowane przez kesat:

The byzantine culture was already deeply influenced by the greek culture since the 7th century (it was also the official language). There was also quite a strong greek-oriental tradition rising due to the "native" influences. Even if byzantium wouldn't have declined & fallen against the turks they would have still been influenced by them due to trade and diplomacy.

They definitely wouldn't haven been like the romans, because they were already different early on...

Justinian himself called himself Roman.. even though he was a Serbian peasant . If you live under an Empire calling itself The Roman Empire , you will believe your a Roman...

[Dragonoid 606]

Well Constantine made the official capital of the Roman Empire (before it split) Constantinople
therefore making the East the legitimate Rome. Plus there is a difference between Germans invading and taking up the mantle of an empire they have no cultural connection to and the greeks (which Latin culture, pagan religion and to some extent the language were based off) who were the lasting part of Rome. Also Byzantium held Rome and Milan (the capital of the west) for around 100 years or so. I think the reason they dropped Latin was not because they realised they weren't Roman but because not much of their Empire spoke it. Byzantium was a name that historians made up during the 18th Century and the "Empire of the Greeks" was a jealous phrase used by the West to describe the Empire which generaly had a greater legitimate claim than any medieval kingdom, who to be honest all wanted to have the prestige linked to being "Roman"

Ps: Russian Orthodoxy is very different from Greek Orthodoxy. The only reason Christianity divided into East an West was because one of the five patriarchs of Byzantium, the one in Rome (Aka the Pope) decided he wanted to be the head of his own religion and broke away from the Christian leaders in Constantinople. So you could even say the Byzantines created the papacy and the Western religion.

[armzngunz]

Everyone in the ERE (Eastern Roman Empire) called themselves Romans or "Rhomanoi", since everyone who lived there considered themselves romans, and not greeks or byzantines, they were romans.

Also, what makes the WRE the more legitimate Roman Empire? They were both 50% of the Roman Empire, but when the WRE were gone, it was only the ERE left, so it wasn't really the eastern half anymore, since the western half didn't exist, so they were just the only remaining roman empire. Also, a country just doesn't "lose" their name because the western powers said so, it was only after the fall of Constantinople that it was called "Byzantium".

The HR-Emperor was crowned by the pope, the HR-Emperor had no other connections to the real roman empires and the one united roman empire. The only reason the western powers didn't want the ERE to be the "true" rome was because of the schism and prestige.

Did you know that some greeks native to Istanbul (Constantinople) still call themselves Romans?

[Emperor of the United States]

Początkowo opublikowane przez olgapåøya:

Everyone in the ERE (Eastern Roman Empire) called themselves Romans or "Rhomanoi", since everyone who lived there considered themselves romans, and not greeks or byzantines, they were romans.

Also, what makes the WRE the more legitimate Roman Empire? They were both 50% of the Roman Empire, but when the WRE were gone, it was only the ERE left, so it wasn't really the eastern half anymore, since the western half didn't exist, so they were just the only remaining roman empire. Also, a country just doesn't "lose" their name because the western powers said so, it was only after the fall of Constantinople that it was called "Byzantium".

The HR-Emperor was crowned by the pope, the HR-Emperor had no other connections to the real roman empires and the one united roman empire. The only reason the western powers didn't want the ERE to be the "true" rome was because of the schism and prestige.

Did you know that some Greeks native to Istanbul (Constantinople) still call themselves Romans?

Is that true? Also, I'm beyond satisfied by the response of you guys. But, if we agree that the Roman culture would not be influenced by the Turks, and in fact if the nationalist movements in Europe had anything to prove than it was that the Ottoman's had not done such a great job in converting the heathens or absorbing their nationalities, so a turko-roman culture wouldn't even form via roman Turks.Though that does raise the question; how would Roman culture develop into the 15th century and beyond. This conversation has been going along the lines of whether or not Rome would be affected by Turkish culture, so how about we talk about the cultural developments you guys would expect. Would it be like many European countries which developed at least a similar style of dress and manners,excluding Russians, or would Rome be this culturally isolated entity that would develop independent of Europe?