Byzantine alternate history culture

[Emperor of the United States]

So I was looking at the byzantine troops given to you with the purple phoenix dlc, and was intriged by what seemed to be turkish influence. The reson is obvious; that turkish culture in anatolia will shake things up. However, that only raised more questions; what would byzantine society look like if they were able to not only survive but spread to anatolia and beyond.

[Surimi]

If we hold the dominant culture of the Byzantine Empire to be "Roman", then "Greek" culture didn't exist until the Ottoman conquest of Greece. Whether you refer to the dominant culture of the Byzantine Empire as Roman or Greek is pretty redundant because they're kind of the same thing. Byzantines called themselves "Romans", but their language and culturally heritage was what we would now call Greek, with only superficial holdovers from the Latin Roman legacy.

As for Turkish influence. Constantinople was one of the largest and most cosmpolitan cities in the world. People from all over Europe and the Islamic world passed through its walls, and they invariably shaped the character of the city. Militarily, it is absolutely undoubtable that Turkish influence would be felt. Byzantines had a long legacy (one of the few things carried over from the Roman Empire) of using culturally non-Greek peoples as soldiers.

One thing to consider is that the real hammer blow to the Byzantine Empire was not the Ottoman conquest, but the fourth crusade. The fourth crusade absolutely devastated the population of Constantinople and lead to the loss of much of its cultural legacy. It was far, far more destructive than the eventual conquest by the Ottomans (which actually did much to preserve a distinctive Greek-orthodox religious culture, albeit at the cost of political freedom).

Ultimately, the state of the Byzantine Empire in the default 1444 start is so devastated that it seems likely it would go one of two ways, either accepting Latin influence (possibly including Catholicism) or Turkish influence. Weird as it might seem, the latter seems considerably more likely given the depth of the wounds left behind by the fourth crusade and the fact that restoring the original borders of the empire is going to mean incorporating vast numbers of turks..

Personally, I have no problem with the Purple Phoenix sprites. The later units, while clearly meant to be slightly Turkified, are actually quite reminiscent of Greek traditional dress.

[Emperor of the United States]

Good point. There would many advantages with accepting Turkish culture and in many ways joining roman and Turkish culture, especially if they meant to restore Anatolia to the empire. Along with assimilation, the Ottomans were inventing a system of administration with ministers independent from the military, something that would interest a country with a history of civil war.Moreover, Ottoman technology, although poorly demonstrated in-game, was far more advanced, something the Byzantines would be interested in. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if certain Muslim influences started to pop into Greek orthodoxy. Incorporation of certain Muslim terms into Christianity would make conversions easier, and moreover we already see the Russian Tsar becoming a religious figure independent of influence, I could imagine the Emperor of Rome reviving the title Pontiffex Maximus to aid in his authority, or even claim a title of Muslim heritage, maybe Great Caliph(μέγας χαλίφης) , if the goal is to 1) stop Latin influence question the churches authority and 2) assimilate the population. This might be a little crazy. Thoughts?

[Tiny Tyrant]

I doubt that, especially if we look at the Greeks today as a reference, the Byzantines wouldn'teven allow Turkish Muslims to live in their realm let alone assimilate with them.

One thing mentioned prior here is that the Byzantines were stubbonly proud of their "Roman" heritage, even if the culture and history they were celebrating wasn't Roman at all. The point is, their pride would never allow even the smallest of capitualations to the Turks. The Turks would either assimilate to Byzantine Christianity, Culture, and Language or be removed one way or another.

The Byzantines never considered the Turks natives to Anatolia, and they were right. The Turks are Oghuz, descendants of the Mongol invaders. They viewed the Turks as invaders and opressors, they viewed Islam in general in the same light. If they were given the chance they would have completely removed Turks from the equation. And the only people left in Anatolia would be the Native Greeks.

As for the Byzantine military its likely they would have adapted Ottoman technology into their own armies, true. I'd imagine they'd expand their Military as much as they could to not only survive, but to conquer, most likely the Levant and the Balkans. They would've lagged behind the Western powers at first, most likely. And its possible they would've gone through military reforms like those of Tsar Peter the Great at some point. Forming a more professional army.

[Emperor of the United States]

Messaggio originale di Margrave:

I doubt that, especially if we look at the Greeks today as a referance, the Byzantines wouldn'teven allow Turkish Muslims to live in their realm let alone assimilate with them.

One thing mentioned prior here is that the Byzantines were stubbonly proud of their "Roman" heritage, even if the culture and history they were celebrating wasn't Roman at all. The point is, their pride would never allow even the smallest of capitualations to the Turks. The Turks would either assimilate to Byzantine Christianity, Culture, and Language or be removed one way or another.

The Byzantines never considered the Turks natives to Anatolia, and they were right. The Turks are Oghuz, descendants of the Mongol invaders. They viewed the Turks as invaders and opressors, they viewed Islam in general in the same light. If they were given the chance they would have completely removed Turks from the equation. And the only people left in Anatolia would be the Native Greeks.

As for the Byzantine military its likely they would have adapted Ottoman technology into their own armies, true. I'd imagine they'd expand their Military as much as they could to not only survive, but to conquer, most likely the Levant and the Balkans. They would've lagged behind the Western powers at first, most likely. And its possible they would've gone through military reforms like those of Tsar Peter the Great at some point. Forming a more professional army.

Good point. You know, I had been thinking about which direction the Romans would conquer. I agree that securing the Balkans and their half of the Mediterranean would be essential(along with the prestige of preoccupying Jerusalem). I frankly think that, after they realized the western powers were unlikely to be unable to be defeated (or at the very least unconquerable), as well as hearing of their attempts to establish trade routs in Asia by going across the ocean and bypassing Constantinople, they would have come to a single conclusion; conquer the east. They would conquer Egypt, reclaiming yet another holy possession in Alexandria, then focus on subjugating their old enemies; the Muslims and Persians. being significantly stronger than anyone in that area after the Ottoman collapse, they would essentially restore Alexander's empire. They may even try to conquer India, taking all that wealth for themselves and converting a population of millions to Christianity. I imagine these eastern provinces would be a cross between European Colonies and an imperial province, being unable to have full administration(at least at first) as they did with Greece, Anatolia and Egypt. At this point, one could argue the Romans had never been stronger; a strong trade empire with continuous borders to sustain a gigantic army.

[armzngunz]

It is hard to estimate what the ERE would conquer, or reconquer for that matter if it managed to stop the muslims, and began to expand again. My quick guess is that they would go as far as the old borders of unified Rome if they somehow became unstoppable, but that seems unlikely.

[Dragonoid 606]

I would atleast think the expanding Romans would try and retake North Africa and Italy as seen with Justinian but i agree they would have given up on Gaul and Hispania unless the French and Spanish empires had fell apart. They most likely would have first of all tried to reconquer back to Egypt and convert the population back to Orthodoxy. After that if their military was up to it they would have A: gone after and persecuted the Turks or B: gone after the nearby cities of Baghdad and Mecca essentially killing two birds with one stone and getting revenge on their two oldest enemies, the Persians and Arabians. These conquests would have seen an almost guaranteed fall of Islam and would have paved the way to either Eastern dominance and a potential Indian invasion, or, power to go and retake the old borders of the empire.

[Tiny Tyrant]

I don't think they'd expand any further than Egypt, The Levant, and the southern Balkans. Primarily because the vast amount of varying cultures and religions in those areas alone would test the stability of Byzantium. Its unlikely that they'd be able to fully convert the Levant and Egypt back to Orthodoxy, and dealing with the unrest of ruling over them would prevent the Empire from expanding any further, at least for centuries.

Overextension is one of the main reasons the Roman Empire was destroyed, I imagine the Byzantines would have at least learned from that mistake. They would focus more on internal stability, instead of domination.

[Dragonoid 606]

Messaggio originale di Margrave:

I don't think they'd expand any further than Egypt, The Levant, and the southern Balkans. Primarily because the vast amount of varying cultures and religions in those areas alone would test the stability of Byzantium. Its unlikely that they'd be able to fully convert the Levant and Egypt back to Orthodoxy, and dealing with the unrest of ruling over them would prevent the Empire from expanding any further, at least for centuries.

Overextension is one of the main reasons the Roman Empire was destroyed, I imagine the Byzantines would have at least learned from that mistake. They would focus more on internal stability, instead of domination.

The Byzantines didnt suffer too much from over extension, their Danubian borders had good natural barriers and the mountains of Armenia and deserts of Arabia stooped many full scale Eastern invasions. Territorial losses were mainly suffered due to civil wars or wars with the Sassanids and then major invasions like in the 7th Century. However i agree civil unrest would have been a problem and full scale rebllions from the muslim poulations in Egypt and the Levant would have stopped any other major conquests for a while.

[Emperor of the United States]

Messaggio originale di Dragonoid 606:

Messaggio originale di Margrave:

I don't think they'd expand any further than Egypt, The Levant, and the southern Balkans. Primarily because the vast amount of varying cultures and religions in those areas alone would test the stability of Byzantium. Its unlikely that they'd be able to fully convert the Levant and Egypt back to Orthodoxy, and dealing with the unrest of ruling over them would prevent the Empire from expanding any further, at least for centuries.

Overextension is one of the main reasons the Roman Empire was destroyed, I imagine the Byzantines would have at least learned from that mistake. They would focus more on internal stability, instead of domination.

The Byzantines didnt suffer too much from over extension, their Danubian borders had good natural barriers and the mountains of Armenia and deserts of Arabia stooped many full scale Eastern invasions. Territorial losses were mainly suffered due to civil wars or wars with the Sassanids and then major invasions like in the 7th Century. However i agree civil unrest would have been a problem and full scale rebllions from the muslim poulations in Egypt and the Levant would have stopped any other major conquests for a while.

If the Romans ever wanted to do a mojor conquest of the east, this would be the best time. Assuming the purple phoenix's rise is the Turks fall, there were really no other powers in the east that matched them. The mamluk sultanate would definetly fall, unable to compete with Roman's armed with Ottoman armaments. Their was no persian dynasty, only the unastable Timurids. Arabia was filled with weak, undeveloped states. There would be practicaly be nothing to stop them from invading all the way to india, but at that point the Indian Sultanates and Rajs may be able to match Roman strength if Rome doesn't gain any allies. Instablitity would certaintly be an issiue; allthough anatolia would be holdable with the help of greeks from anatolia and the greek islands, they would need to raise their numbers rather high to be able ot force the muslim arabs and persians out of Iraq, syria, and Iran if they did not convert.