Please make EOS optional

[Elegant Caveman]

I loved EU III, and I'd love to play this, but forcing EOS (Epic Online Services) onto people post launch is really not cool.

There's absolutely no valid reason why I should be connecting to Epic servers while playing singleplayer.

Please consider making it optional, like the good devs of Titan Quest.

[Marquoz]

1) This is the Steam forum, not the Epic forum. No one who bought the game through Steam connects to Epic services. They connect to Steam instead.

2) EU4 developers pay almost no attention to this place. If you want them to read your post, make it on the official Paradox forum.

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by Marquoz:

1) This is the Steam forum, not the Epic forum. No one who bought the game through Steam connects to Epic services. They connect to Steam instead.

2) EU4 developers pay almost no attention to this place. If you want them to read your post, make it on the official Paradox forum.

1) That's not true, and that's exactly my problem.

When you launch the game (on Steam; I have nothing to do with the Epic store), it connects to Epic's servers. EOS was added at some point post-launch, I'm not sure exactly when.

You can test this yourself with a network-monitoring tool of choice (I used GlassWire[www.glasswire.com], which is free).

2) Unfortunate. Thank you for that information.

[Marquoz]

Originally posted by Elegant Caveman:

1) That's not true, and that's exactly my problem.

When you launch the game (on Steam; I have nothing to do with the Epic store), it connects to Epic's servers. EOS was added at some point post-launch, I'm not sure exactly when.

You can test this yourself with a network-monitoring tool of choice (I used GlassWire[www.glasswire.com], which is free).

I researched GlassWire, decided it was harmless, and installed it. Then I fired up Steam and EU4. No connections to Epic/EOS were made.

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by Marquoz:

I researched GlassWire, decided it was harmless, and installed it. Then I fired up Steam and EU4. No connections to Epic/EOS were made.

You got my hopes up that they'd removed it, so I reinstalled the game and checked again, but no, there it is, it connects to:

eos-gateway-ingressv2-prod-c1-w1.befa.live.use1a.on.epicgames.com

I'm not sure where you looked, but I found this by choosing "Usage" and selecting "Europa Universalis IV" under the "Apps" tab.

If you're not finding it there, I'm not sure what to say...

Are you using mods? Not using the launcher? Have you done something special to your game?

I just installed the game, launched, and pressed "Play" on the launcher.

[Marquoz]

Originally posted by Elegant Caveman:

Originally posted by Marquoz:

I researched GlassWire, decided it was harmless, and installed it. Then I fired up Steam and EU4. No connections to Epic/EOS were made.

You got my hopes up that they'd removed it, so I reinstalled the game and checked again, but no, there it is, it connects to:

eos-gateway-ingressv2-prod-c1-w1.befa.live.use1a.on.epicgames.com

I'm not sure where you looked, but I found this by choosing "Usage" and selecting "Europa Universalis IV" under the "Apps" tab.

Ah, okay, now I see it. I thought it would be listed independently.

[Ashling]

Originally posted by Elegant Caveman:

forcing EOS (Epic Online Services) onto people post launch is really not cool.

Wait, why not? Did they have a leak recently or are unreliable or something?

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by Triangle:

Originally posted by Elegant Caveman:

forcing EOS (Epic Online Services) onto people post launch is really not cool.

Wait, why not? Did they have a leak recently or something?

Nevermind that Epic is a cancer on the industry, espouses horrid business practices, and have proven themselves[www.eurogamer.net] untrustworthy (gross negligence at best, active maliciousness at worst)...

Why should should a Steam game be forced to connect to a third-party competitor's servers, and this quietly added to the game years after launch? Especially for singleplayer! There's no possible valid reason for this.

If I wanted to use Epic's services, I'd go to Epic. They have no place forcing themselves onto other ecosystems.

It's bad enough when this stuff's in a game when it comes out, at least then we can vote with our wallet... but when it's added years later stealthily? That's just scummy.

[Sharpie The Dragon]

Personally I wished that you could've installed this game through no DRM; But if you do that things like multiplayer don't work which is pretty bogus.

Most DRMs has an unhealthy amount of spyware (your voice chats are logged for instance)

[grotaclas]

Did anybody try what happens if you move the EOS dll out of the game folder? Maybe that gets rid of the connection if it doesn't prevent the game start

[Ashling]

Originally posted by Elegant Caveman:

Nevermind that Epic is a cancer on the industry, espouses horrid business practices, and have proven themselves[www.eurogamer.net] untrustworthy (gross negligence at best, active maliciousness at worst)...

That is concerning, from what I can tell their servers aren't meant to do that as advertised. It's definitely a sketchy practice and is probably a healthy thing to be off put by them.

Originally posted by Elegant Caveman:

Why should should a Steam game be forced to connect to a third-party competitor's servers, and this quietly added to the game years after launch? Especially for singleplayer! There's no possible valid reason for this.

In this case, I'd assume it's an EU4-paid-for server. Epic allows devs to use their servers, as well as giving helpful code shortcuts, to obtain game statistics and basically help run the back end and multiplayer aspects of a game. The game connecting to a third party server isn't really that concerning considering basically everything online that you can interact with has a server connected to it. The Epic servers could also have something to do with the EU4 multiplayer update that happened awhile ago?

What's concerning is that, at least in the linked article, Epic the company is also taking that information for more than providing the service which is weird and unethical.

Personally? I don't think it's that worrying in the grand scheme of things, but there's enough there where you're being reasonable (not that it's for me to judge). I'd just roll back EU4 to a version I liked and then turn off the computer's wi-fi while playing it.

Edit: just to be clear, turning off your computer's wi-fi wouldn't make you immune. It's the mask wearing of the personal protection variety. You'll limit what they can do rather than put a hard stop on it, so it's more of if you get the itch to play the game.

[RCMidas]

Whilst I am in legal agreement with the unethical aspect of this sort of thing, I am in practical disagreement because this war has already been lost. Even if you tear down most of the internet and rebuild it from the ground up, every single company out there is able and willing to do this exact same thing with varying levels of competence and apathy.

Fighting for principles is all well and good in theory, but it doesn't actually get you anywhere unless you can win - and you'd need to rework the entire global socioeconomic framework on which about 5 billion people actively depend in order to have that chance.

Epic Games is stealing your data? So what? They can do nothing negative with it in a decade that my spiteful ex cannot outperform in a single hour.

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by grotaclas:

Did anybody try what happens if you move the EOS dll out of the game folder? Maybe that gets rid of the connection if it doesn't prevent the game start

I did try, and the game simply refuses to launch.

Originally posted by Triangle:

In this case, I'd assume it's an EU4-paid-for server. Epic allows devs to use their servers, as well as giving helpful code shortcuts, to obtain game statistics and basically help run the back end and multiplayer aspects of a game.

The main purpose of EOS is to allow crossplay, though it's used for other things as well (such as tracking achievements and friends on Epic... nothing to do with Steam).

I wouldn't be happy if they relied solely on Epic for the multiplayer even on Steam, but since I don't care about multiplayer, if that's all they did, I'd be grudgingly accepting of it.

Part of what bothers me so is that the game connects to Epic's servers as soon as you launch it. EOS should not "activate" until/unless someone chooses to play multiplayer.

Leave my singleplayer alone.

Originally posted by Triangle:

The game connecting to a third party server isn't really that concerning considering basically everything online that you can interact with has a server connected to it.

Who the third party is matters, and I especially resent the fact that this is something that was changed post-launch.

If something is present when one originally purchases a product, we at least get to choose whether we want to accept the thing (whatever it may be; in this case EOS) or not.

When it's added later, though, the customer is left without a choice. They're not even informed it's happened.

Originally posted by Triangle:

What's concerning is that, at least in the linked article, Epic the company is also taking that information for more than providing the service which is weird and unethical.

That's why I say the "who" matters. I have absolutely zero faith in Epic as a company.

No company is your friend (Steam/Valve are no angels), but some are better/worse than others, and it's up to us to decide which we wish to do business with and afford a degree of trust to.

I don't know the details of what Epic does/doesn't do, and most of this is probably harmless, but over the years, by their actions, I've learned not to trust them.

Originally posted by Triangle:

The Epic servers could also have something to do with the EU4 multiplayer update that happened awhile ago?

Could be. One of the curators I follow claims it was added when EUIV was released on Epic's store. That may or may not coincide with the MP update you mention.

Originally posted by Triangle:

I'd just roll back EU4 to a version I liked and then turn off the computer's wi-fi while playing it.

Edit: just to be clear, turning off your computer's wi-fi wouldn't make you immune. It's the mask wearing of the personal protection variety. You'll limit what they can do rather than put a hard stop on it, so it's more of if you get the itch to play the game.

More trouble than it's worth for me, and it doesn't address the principle of the issue.

I've been meaning for some time to look into how to block epic's servers (though that may just block the game from working entirely), but I have plenty of other games, and at the end of the day, it's easier to simply ignore any game with EOS.

I appreciate the suggestion, though.

If I really get the itch, I'll just play EUIII. It's still a fine game.

Originally posted by RCMidas:

Whilst I am in legal agreement with the unethical aspect of this sort of thing, I am in practical disagreement because this war has already been lost. Even if you tear down most of the internet and rebuild it from the ground up, every single company out there is able and willing to do this exact same thing with varying levels of competence and apathy.

Fighting for principles is all well and good in theory, but it doesn't actually get you anywhere unless you can win - and you'd need to rework the entire global socioeconomic framework on which about 5 billion people actively depend in order to have that chance.

Epic Games is stealing your data? So what? They can do nothing negative with it in a decade that my spiteful ex cannot outperform in a single hour.

Though I don't entirely disagree, I'm not ready to throw in the towel quite yet.

It may be a losing war, but I wouldn't say it's been lost yet. I still have a tiny bit of hope/faith, so I keep raving against the darkness.

Change can happen, even if it's slow and/or small.

I think the best "weapon" is simply information. Most people have no idea EOS is even a thing.

This reminds me a lot of how things were with Denuvo when it first showed up.

Denuvo's still around, but over the years, as more and more people learned about it and voiced their discontent, it's seen a steady decline.

As another example, there's the devs of House Flipper.

Turned out that their EOS.dll wasn't even active, but upon learning that it was a concern to the community, they decided to remove it. A symbolic gesture, but still a significant one.

It was actually this event that made me get GlassWire and start testing the various games I already had which allegedly had EOS (found out that in most cases, the file is inactive; sadly not the case with EUIV).

I linked to Titan Quest in my first post: that's the only time I'm aware of where an "active" version of EOS was removed (well, made optional) following feedback from the community.

If we don't speak up, nothing changes.

If we do speak up... probably nothing changes. But maybe. At least maybe.

[grotaclas]

I don't think that the EOS connection is used for multiplayer. The cross-platform multiplayer is done with a service which is called nakama. Or is nakama connected to epic in some way?

[Elegant Caveman]

Originally posted by grotaclas:

I don't think that the EOS connection is used for multiplayer. The cross-platform multiplayer is done with a service which is called nakama. Or is nakama connected to epic in some way?

Doesn't seem to be related to Epic: https://heroiclabs.com/

Which just makes things worse. EOS has no business being anywhere in this game, especially if they're not even using it for MP.

[Ashling]

Originally posted by grotaclas:

I don't think that the EOS connection is used for multiplayer. The cross-platform multiplayer is done with a service which is called nakama. Or is nakama connected to epic in some way?

They look to be separate, but it's not uncommon for a business to use different server providers for different things. So Nakama might run the multiplayer but EOS might track statistic/accounts/whatever.

But I didn't know EU4 was on the Epics Game Store, so it could honestly be any number of things from an error in start up, multi-platform work around, or even something malicious. Don't have the code, don't know.

Ultimately, it's up to you and your discretion.