How are the Ottomans so much more powerful than me?

[volbound1700]

I am one tech level ahead of them and have Quality Idea tree and yet they still easily win battles against me. Fortunately, the war is rather useless to me, in fact Ottos winning might help me but it is still curious how the game can be this broken. I mop the floor with everyone else but Otto armies half my size beat me in battle easily. How are you supposed to win them? In most games, you usually win when you have way more troops than the opponent.

[Narrowmind]

This game is a bit deeper than having way more troops. Are you attacking on neutral terrain and defending in mountains or hills? I assume your morale is full because you beat other opponents. Are you using a general with decent shock/fire pips? Do you understand how they work? What year is it? Is it time for cannons? Ultra valuable if you have access to them. Without them, every battle can seem a major slog.

[volbound1700]

Originally posted by Ratlegion:

This game is a bit deeper than having way more troops. Are you attacking on neutral terrain and defending in mountains or hills? I assume your morale is full because you beat other opponents. Are you using a general with decent shock/fire pips? Do you understand how they work? What year is it? Is it time for cannons? Ultra valuable if you have access to them. Without them, every battle can seem a major slog.

The battles were in Lithuania (my ally). Ottos went to war with Poland-Lithuania and I went to help, sometimes even defending lands that had Polish forts on them.

It is 1506 so yes we have cannons. I am military tech 10 and Ottos are military tech 9.

[Narrowmind]

What's your unit composition look like lately?

[volbound1700]

Originally posted by Ratlegion:

What's your unit composition look like lately?

14 Inf, 4 Calv, 4 Art

[Narrowmind]

Is there a reason you have 4 cav instead of 2? Do you realize the combat width is 25 at your tech level? That's the number you need.

[RCMidas]

What's causing the defeats? Morale loss or unit loss? Because your troops may simply not be as disciplined and enthusiastic as the Ottomans, and will break quicker under the stress of battle. Are your units led by generals, or are they reliant on petty officers? These are just some of the things which can pull a defeat from the jaws of victory.

EDIT: Also the combat width thing. This is about when you want to start phasing out cav in favour of a nearly-full row of infantry, which is going to become cheaper and more efficient.

[Marquoz]

Battle results are determined by the following factors.

--Relative tech levels. Even a difference of one point can have a huge impact. Make sure you are the one in the lead.
--The terrain you fight on. Always attack in plains. Always defend in hills, mountains, or forests. Never cross a river to attack. Make the enemy cross one when you defend.
--Generals. Just having one isn't enough. Points in siege are great to attack forts but don't help in an army clash. Points in fire don't help before you get infantry with good fire values and decent cannons. Etc. You need the right general, not just any general.
--Combat width and army composition. You want a front row of infantry + cavalry equal to your combat width. For most nations, a small number of cavalry (2 to 6, depending on combat width) is optimal. Your rear row should be exclusively artillery. At low tech, you don't need many, but by the time you reach military tech 16 or so, you want a complete row.
--Sending in a second army to reinforce the first in large battles after significant damage has been done to your side.
--Making sure your troops are fully funded in wartime and have time to reach max morale.
--Drilling. The AI drills consistently, and it provides significant bonuses. When you can afford it, you should do the same
--Advisor and ruler bonuses (like extra morale or discipline)
--National and military idea groups (but note that you can do VERY well in combat without either of these)

Once you know what you're doing, you will go entire campaigns without ever coming close to losing a fight.

[volbound1700]

I had a lot of this stuff. I play this game a lot. In the past 20 years, I beat Denmark 2x (conquering the whole country eventually) and Muscovy. I conquered Novgorod earlier.

It is the Ottomans being Overpowered in early 1500s like most games. Either way, it helps me because I need Poland-Lithuania beat up (even if they are my ally).

The Ottomans always seem to do this in most of their games. It was frustrating this time though having quality, national ideas, +1 on military tech, and superior numbers. Perhaps my general wasn't as great but that is random draw. You cannot just select a good general. Both were 1 star but I didn't look at their stats.

These battles, I win against everyone else, just not Ottomans it seems.

[AN]

The Ottomans have their own tech group that gives them extremely powerful troops compared to everyone else(except Nomads) for techs between about 8 and 15, but some of the weakest in the late game. Meanwhile western tech has the weakest troops of anyone until later in the game, when they have the strongest.

This is why you're broadly having difficulty in battle against the Ottomans right now, but no one else. They also have Janissaries, but they aren't that much stronger than normal troops.

[Marquoz]

There's nothing special about the Ottomans. They get no secret bonuses, no cheats, no abilities beyond those you see when you play them yourself. They're a strong starting nation--but not even close to the strongest--that is in close proximity to many popular choices, so players run into them frequently.

But they're not hard to beat. I have wiped them completely off the map as Byzantium, Athens, the Mamluks, Candar, Hisn Kaifa, Karaman, AQ, QQ, Poland, Venice, Austria, the Knights, Wallachia, Serbia, Hungary, Italy, Corfu, Austria, Spain, the Mughals, Ryuku, France, England, Persia, Oman, Russia, the Aztecs and other nations I'm currently forgetting. I've beaten them in the early, middle, and late game, as a nation that starts as their neighbor and as one that doesn't meet them for centuries.

Once you understand combat mechanics and the workings of EU4's economy, they're just another enemy. In fact, they need massive buffs, not nerfs, because they never become the threat that they should be. They need to get their cores back, to have their old CCR value, and so on.

[Narrowmind]

You also would have been better served with Offensive or Defensive, instead of Quality, most likely.

[Marquoz]

Originally posted by volbound1700:

Perhaps my general wasn't as great but that is random draw. You cannot just select a good general.

Sure you can. I never* pick military idea groups. Instead, I use those points on tech and rolling lots and lots of generals. This has three advantages: it increases my army professionalism quickly, it keeps me ahead in tech, and it gives me the right general for the right situation. Siege armies have siege pip generals, early armies have shock pip generals, late armies have fire pip generals, and pretty much all armies have good maneuver generals.

*Unless I have a mission or achievement that can't be completed without them. Prussia's discipline achievement, for example.

[Dmformom]

Originally posted by Marquoz:

Originally posted by volbound1700:

Perhaps my general wasn't as great but that is random draw. You cannot just select a good general.

Sure you can. I never* pick military idea groups. Instead, I use those points on tech and rolling lots and lots of generals. This has three advantages: it increases my army professionalism quickly, it keeps me ahead in tech, and it gives me the right general for the right situation. Siege armies have siege pip generals, early armies have shock pip generals, late armies have fire pip generals, and pretty much all armies have good maneuver generals.

*Unless I have a mission or achievement that can't be completed without them. Prussia's discipline achievement, for example.

Offensive is always a nice pick if you're not going for some very hard achievement/world conquest. Leader pips+siege ability+ discipline is nice to have. I only ever pick it if i'm way ahead in mil tech though, or just need a small boost against someone stronger than me.

[bri]

Originally posted by Dmformom:

Originally posted by Marquoz:

Sure you can. I never* pick military idea groups. Instead, I use those points on tech and rolling lots and lots of generals. This has three advantages: it increases my army professionalism quickly, it keeps me ahead in tech, and it gives me the right general for the right situation. Siege armies have siege pip generals, early armies have shock pip generals, late armies have fire pip generals, and pretty much all armies have good maneuver generals.

*Unless I have a mission or achievement that can't be completed without them. Prussia's discipline achievement, for example.

Offensive is always a nice pick if you're not going for some very hard achievement/world conquest. Leader pips+siege ability+ discipline is nice to have. I only ever pick it if i'm way ahead in mil tech though, or just need a small boost against someone stronger than me.

I've played over 9k hours and don't remember ever taking offensive because the bonuses really aren't that great in the early game and in the mid/late game it really doesn't matter because no one can compete with my blob no matter how much better their soldiers are. If I take a military group it's either defensive or quality depending on if I care about navies at all that game as they are more impactful in the early game.

[rhys118]

As someone who recently had the same issue. I've just beaten them in two holy wars. I'm Florence in only had 60k troops but the Ottomans have 500k. I read somewhere they have great buffs until level 20 I believe, so what I did was I allied Russia, Poland and France. Poland and Russia had been smashed by the ottos on their own. But together we amassed around 450k troops. I waited until the ottomans went to war in the east. And then me and my allies sieged down Greece. Got a plus 50 war score. And as I noticed the ottomans were sending their entire army to us I peaced out taking as much land as possible.

I did the same thing in the second war. Only Russia would fight with me. But I waited until the ottomans were at war in the east and took land again.