Shahanshah in King of Kings - Forming Persia as Ardabil Getting Worse?

[SeymourG]

Hello lads. I've waited to try a Persia run until the rework with 1.36/KoK, and figured that if I'm going to be grabbing some Persian achievements, I may as well go the full mile and grab Shahanshah listed as Very Hard on the Wiki and for good reason, IMO.

Results So Far

I've found this completely impossible to do. Many online posts I see about it indicate that it got harder over the many years since it was introduced (1.8, 2014), and while I don't know if anything in this particular update made it even worse, none of the old guides or videos seem to be accurate any longer. My attempts have all gone in one of three ways:
1) QQ bodies me within the first year (3x)
2) I survive for a while and grow a bit, but Ajam murders the weakened Timurids and forms Persia on their own (4x)
3) Ajam, QQ, or Shirvan ally with one of the others and collectively body me within the first year (2x)

Attempts to Prevail

As such, I am at a loss. Things I've tried to no avail:
a) Allying QQ, Ajam, or Shirvan. I reset a grand total of 17 times, and in every single one, all three were hostile or two hostile and one domineering -- even when QQ was merely domineering, I'd do everything in my power to increase opinion or look tough (Increase Relations, Estate Privilege for fellow Shias, insult enemies, beef up over force limit, ally elsewhere, etc.) but was always DOWed by QQ regardless. Interestingly, older guides seemed to indicate that QQ being domineering was significantly preferable (or outright necessary) to this run, but the three times they had that attitude wound up being the only three times they DOWed me. Wonder if something changed there?
b) Allying externally. Mushasha is an easy early ally, as are others a bit up north around Georgia. Another strong deviation is that many older guides indicated that Shirvan would be a solid backup ally if QQ fails, but I never once got that opportunity. In my 17 resets to tempt RNGesus, Shirvan was always either hostile or flatout a rival. And Ajam was perpetually hostile, period. No big allies ever cared enough in time -- AQ, Mamluks, Ottomans, Timurids all ignored me until it was too late. Damn Sunnis.
c) Accepting QQ bodying me and becoming their vassal, then using the Mamluks to bail me out in an Independence War. This almost worked once after quite a bit of last-ditch finagling (and avoiding being annexed by 3%), but the Ottomans took advantage of the whole thing and slapped the Mamluks, ultimately forcing them out of my war.
d) Striking it relatively solo. If I don't get smacked down in the first year, I can conquer a fair bit by myself. Even when managing to stay alive for a long time, I still can't prevent Ajam from expanding east into the Timurids' mess and forming Persia completely independent of my actions. Short of declaring on Ajam myself, anyway. Even then, they keep ballooning within the first year or two, long before I have the opportunity to get real allies, so when they form Persia in under a decade... I'm unsure if I can still get any of the Persian achievements or form it at all if I play the long game and fully eradicate this first Persian iteration off the map then attempt to form it myself, but that would likely take up far too much time, assuming they don't just turn around and strike me down.
e) Being an opportunist. I've had a few decent runs where fortune would smile upon me and, say, QQ would get dog-piled by many countries and I could take a solid chunk. This has not yet been enough to either prevent me from being murdered regardless or Ajam forming Persia on its own.

RNG Pre-Requisites?

The way I'm seeing it, with the current state the game is in, it feels as though I require the following blessings from RNGesus in order to make this Shahanshah run happen:
i) I need QQ, Ajam, and Shirvan to collectively grant me mercy in the first year or two until I can stand on my own two legs. This includes none of them getting particularly good alliances, or they seem guaranteed to engulf the entire Persian/Caucasian sub-regions.
ii) I need the Timurids to not fall apart (has not yet happened for me), thus preventing Ajam from taking necessary provinces from them and their vassals.
iii) I need Ajam to be put in its place by someone other than me so that they don't form Persia on their own. I have not yet been able to form an alliance stronger than theirs in time.

It's a short list, but they have not all been met at once. The three of these each seem to have pretty low odds separately, so having all three at once appears very improbable. I feel as though I've ironed out the parts I actually have control over, but the above three things feel 50-100% controlled by RNG. I feel as though I could simply brute-force this and attempt many more dozens of times until the stars align, but I'm reaching out here in hopes that there's actual strategy to be had here. I'm hoping that my fears of an ancient achievement being accidentally made nigh-impossible by a new update/DLC are just me being a noob.

In Other Words...

Tl;Dr: my runs all either end within the first year or two by one of the three surrounding pricks, or a decade in when Ajam beats me to the punch and forms Persia by itself. Advice on how to proceed in the current version/DLC environment would be greatly appreciated, especially pointing out anything I'm misconstruing. Thanks!

[Marquoz]

I don't have any useful advice for you about completing it in the present patch--I'm one of those players who got it many years ago, when it was indeed easier than it is now. My recommendation is to roll the game back to the version in which it was introduced (or one shortly thereafter) and try it there.

[KingCobra]

idk... i did king of kings achievement as ardabil on release. im eat shirvan and biapas on start. then ajam with help of timurids.
i think u need some luck on start with timurids rivals for +20 reason for alliance

[Demien]

I honestly don't remember in which order I declared war on my neighbours but I can assure you is doable because I just did it in this patch. It worked on my third run, first and second I was killed after 40 years. What helped me a lot was not to rush expanding. In my third run I didn't have strong allies but I waited every time that neighbours were in war. Biggest challenge for me were the Ottomans(as usual) were I needed Commonwealth, France, Bohemia and some minor WHILE they were at wars with Mamluks. It's crazy that even after 3 total defeats from me they have half my dev and still more soldiers than me.
Anyway forget about that crap about resetting the game till you have good rivals. It doesn't work in this patch, just try multiple times and chew only little by little.

[salatrin]

My strategy is to just get attacked by QQ (usually after ive swallowed up Biapas and maybe Mazandaran) cuz if they attack me, i dont have to deal with their allies(i usually have same 2 allies they do and they join my side on defensive or neither) then i just grab a merc or 2, wait for them to siege Ardabil, then destroy them, repeat a time or 2 as needed, then after their armies are beaten, i siege Tabriz and its GG QQ, and then u have a nice starting powerbase from there to continue on

[Demien]

Originally posted by salatrin:

My strategy is to just get attacked by QQ (usually after ive swallowed up Biapas and maybe Mazandaran) cuz if they attack me, i dont have to deal with their allies(i usually have same 2 allies they do and they join my side on defensive or neither) then i just grab a merc or 2, wait for them to siege Ardabil, then destroy them, repeat a time or 2 as needed, then after their armies are beaten, i siege Tabriz and its GG QQ, and then u have a nice starting powerbase from there to continue on

Seems like a good strategy. I want to point out that beating QQ is preferred but not necessary. In my game they stayed allied to the Ottomans the whole game and I had to beat them really late.

[SeymourG]

Originally posted by Demien:

I honestly don't remember in which order I declared war on my neighbours but I can assure you is doable because I just did it in this patch. It worked on my third run, first and second I was killed after 40 years. What helped me a lot was not to rush expanding. In my third run I didn't have strong allies but I waited every time that neighbours were in war. Biggest challenge for me were the Ottomans(as usual) were I needed Commonwealth, France, Bohemia and some minor WHILE they were at wars with Mamluks. It's crazy that even after 3 total defeats from me they have half my dev and still more soldiers than me.
Anyway forget about that crap about resetting the game till you have good rivals. It doesn't work in this patch, just try multiple times and chew only little by little.

This patch, eh? I'm envious. I'll keep beating my head into the wall and see what I can do. I sadly can't even get to the point of "don't expand too fast" since I've been losing each run in 1-10 years to QQ or Ajam beating me to the Persia punch, thanks largely to Timurids self-destructing every time, but I'll keep trying.
Cheers lads.

[Demien]

Originally posted by SeymourG:

Originally posted by Demien:

I honestly don't remember in which order I declared war on my neighbours but I can assure you is doable because I just did it in this patch. It worked on my third run, first and second I was killed after 40 years. What helped me a lot was not to rush expanding. In my third run I didn't have strong allies but I waited every time that neighbours were in war. Biggest challenge for me were the Ottomans(as usual) were I needed Commonwealth, France, Bohemia and some minor WHILE they were at wars with Mamluks. It's crazy that even after 3 total defeats from me they have half my dev and still more soldiers than me.
Anyway forget about that crap about resetting the game till you have good rivals. It doesn't work in this patch, just try multiple times and chew only little by little.

This patch, eh? I'm envious. I'll keep beating my head into the wall and see what I can do. I sadly can't even get to the point of "don't expand too fast" since I've been losing each run in 1-10 years to QQ or Ajam beating me to the Persia punch, thanks largely to Timurids self-destructing every time, but I'll keep trying.
Cheers lads.

You will eventually do it :) I'm sure of it.

[Johnny 5]

Been trying to do the first year for about 3 hours now. It's definately not possible at moment. All the advice online from over a year ago is utterly wrong.

On the current build it is not possible. All the guides like ally the indian country is complete nonsense, it's no longer mechanically possible and QQ absolutely always are hostile or domineering. What's more is you are required to invite Gilam into your aggressive war if you choose to try that because nobody around will even give you access, so you can't bait them onto your mountain

[SeymourG]

Originally posted by Johnny 5:

Been trying to do the first year for about 3 hours now. It's definately not possible at moment. All the advice online from over a year ago is utterly wrong.

On the current build it is not possible. All the guides like ally the indian country is complete nonsense, it's no longer mechanically possible and QQ absolutely always are hostile or domineering. What's more is you are required to invite Gilam into your aggressive war if you choose to try that because nobody around will even give you access, so you can't bait them onto your mountain

I never had enough luck either, friend. Maybe one day we'll get there.

[BlueBangkok]

I am almost sure it used to be possible to ally QQ, which enabled you to get off the ground. You can roll back to older versions through the Beta channels on Steam and try it. Or, maybe just disabling King of Kings and Domination would help. The Shahanshah achievement requires neither.

[SeymourG]

Originally posted by BlueBangkok:

I am almost sure it used to be possible to ally QQ, which enabled you to get off the ground. You can roll back to older versions through the Beta channels on Steam and try it. Or, maybe just disabling King of Kings and Domination would help. The Shahanshah achievement requires neither.

That's kinda the funny part about this -- the DLC and update centered around fleshing out Persia made an achievement already in that area nigh impossible? Did they not playtest that sort of thing? Or is it deliberately insanely challenging...

[vdarkcharlie]

Originally posted by SeymourG:

Hello lads. I've waited to try a Persia run until the rework with 1.36/KoK, and figured that if I'm going to be grabbing some Persian achievements, I may as well go the full mile and grab Shahanshah listed as Very Hard on the Wiki and for good reason, IMO.

Results So Far

I've found this completely impossible to do. Many online posts I see about it indicate that it got harder over the many years since it was introduced (1.8, 2014), and while I don't know if anything in this particular update made it even worse, none of the old guides or videos seem to be accurate any longer. My attempts have all gone in one of three ways:
1) QQ bodies me within the first year (3x)
2) I survive for a while and grow a bit, but Ajam murders the weakened Timurids and forms Persia on their own (4x)
3) Ajam, QQ, or Shirvan ally with one of the others and collectively body me within the first year (2x)

Attempts to Prevail

As such, I am at a loss. Things I've tried to no avail:
a) Allying QQ, Ajam, or Shirvan. I reset a grand total of 17 times, and in every single one, all three were hostile or two hostile and one domineering -- even when QQ was merely domineering, I'd do everything in my power to increase opinion or look tough (Increase Relations, Estate Privilege for fellow Shias, insult enemies, beef up over force limit, ally elsewhere, etc.) but was always DOWed by QQ regardless. Interestingly, older guides seemed to indicate that QQ being domineering was significantly preferable (or outright necessary) to this run, but the three times they had that attitude wound up being the only three times they DOWed me. Wonder if something changed there?
b) Allying externally. Mushasha is an easy early ally, as are others a bit up north around Georgia. Another strong deviation is that many older guides indicated that Shirvan would be a solid backup ally if QQ fails, but I never once got that opportunity. In my 17 resets to tempt RNGesus, Shirvan was always either hostile or flatout a rival. And Ajam was perpetually hostile, period. No big allies ever cared enough in time -- AQ, Mamluks, Ottomans, Timurids all ignored me until it was too late. Damn Sunnis. :crusader_helmet:
c) Accepting QQ bodying me and becoming their vassal, then using the Mamluks to bail me out in an Independence War. This almost worked once after quite a bit of last-ditch finagling (and avoiding being annexed by 3%), but the Ottomans took advantage of the whole thing and slapped the Mamluks, ultimately forcing them out of my war.
d) Striking it relatively solo. If I don't get smacked down in the first year, I can conquer a fair bit by myself. Even when managing to stay alive for a long time, I still can't prevent Ajam from expanding east into the Timurids' mess and forming Persia completely independent of my actions. Short of declaring on Ajam myself, anyway. Even then, they keep ballooning within the first year or two, long before I have the opportunity to get real allies, so when they form Persia in under a decade... I'm unsure if I can still get any of the Persian achievements or form it at all if I play the long game and fully eradicate this first Persian iteration off the map then attempt to form it myself, but that would likely take up far too much time, assuming they don't just turn around and strike me down.
e) Being an opportunist. I've had a few decent runs where fortune would smile upon me and, say, QQ would get dog-piled by many countries and I could take a solid chunk. This has not yet been enough to either prevent me from being murdered regardless or Ajam forming Persia on its own.

RNG Pre-Requisites?

The way I'm seeing it, with the current state the game is in, it feels as though I require the following blessings from RNGesus in order to make this Shahanshah run happen:
i) I need QQ, Ajam, and Shirvan to collectively grant me mercy in the first year or two until I can stand on my own two legs. This includes none of them getting particularly good alliances, or they seem guaranteed to engulf the entire Persian/Caucasian sub-regions.
ii) I need the Timurids to not fall apart (has not yet happened for me), thus preventing Ajam from taking necessary provinces from them and their vassals.
iii) I need Ajam to be put in its place by someone other than me so that they don't form Persia on their own. I have not yet been able to form an alliance stronger than theirs in time.

It's a short list, but they have not all been met at once. The three of these each seem to have pretty low odds separately, so having all three at once appears very improbable. I feel as though I've ironed out the parts I actually have control over, but the above three things feel 50-100% controlled by RNG. I feel as though I could simply brute-force this and attempt many more dozens of times until the stars align, but I'm reaching out here in hopes that there's actual strategy to be had here. I'm hoping that my fears of an ancient achievement being accidentally made nigh-impossible by a new update/DLC are just me being a noob. :pointless:

In Other Words...

Tl;Dr: my runs all either end within the first year or two by one of the three surrounding pricks, or a decade in when Ajam beats me to the punch and forms Persia by itself. Advice on how to proceed in the current version/DLC environment would be greatly appreciated, especially pointing out anything I'm misconstruing. Thanks! :adulterer:

Got this achievement today at 8:20 PM. When I saw this post I decided to give it a try. I only have the base game and the free DLC we got last year. It took about 7 tries and attacking Biapas is a bad idea because QQ always attacked after. I was lucky on the final try to have Timmy attack Ajam in the first 10 years which allowed me to attack Ajam soon after. After that, it was a matter of making allies with any minor country I could.

[Smeggy]

A lot of the achievements in eu4 boil down to perseverance mali ardabil karaman I kinda just succeeded hard to give a guide

[Jean-Maurice Nya]

My 11 years old did it in about 30 years last year at his first try. First ally he got was Bahmani as it is shown in the religious map that they are from the same Shia religious group (first thing to do when seeking allies usually as it gives a boost to relation), improve relations, get royal marriage and then alliance. Bahmani alone is strong enough to be dissuasive for your neighbours.
Musasha was also a good ally, Shirvan rivaled him and he got Gazikumukh instead. He vassalized Biapas, got rid of Gilan and got opportunistic while QQ and Ajams did their wars. He improved with Ottomans and got an alliance with them as soon as he grew on its neighbours. Then, it was a matter of getting the right provinces which was pretty fast considering the numerous wars in the region early on.

The RNG was probably in his favor to go that fast, but when extremely weak, you should seek a strong ally fast. Spend a lot of time looking at your best options before unpausing. In that case you can see that Bahmani is not that far in the possible alliances options.
I did my Manipur achievement run allying Bengal early and forcing it to go to war against our mutual targets so it was locked into truces and couldn't expand in provinces we both seek early. It was a matter of time before I outgrow it by taking over the east and then the Bengal region itself.

[Dimitrius145]

I tried play Ardabil early and I'm on my 5th attempt(25th or so for RNG rerolls) and I am starting to think the country is unplayable without exploits now. the farthest I've gotten was to c.1490 when I managed to partition Biapas and get an extremely lucky alliance with Mazandran. I think the alliance is pivitotal to even getting off the ground since apparently the rest of Eurasia must think the Safavids smell because they will never ally me. Anyways I managed to BTFO Shirvan after they made the extremely smart move of invading the great horde. With the end of the war I had bled Ajam white both militarily and financially and cut every alliance they had so I could kill them off as a main combatant, The only issue was that never happened as the great horde invaded about 3 years later and Mazandran must have decided that working with Gilan was too much so they proceeded to refuse to merge armies and wipe themselves out fighting alone against the Tartars. I ended up get vassalized and stack wiped twice by the Russians and the Turks before I was released by the former. Thanks to the 6d chess game mechanics I was independent but still at war with Qazan who proceeded to stack wipe me a third time and I was promptly invaded by Mazandran while Qazan was sieging my capital leading me to quit and try again,

In conclusion I'm still going to try and spam reroll to try and start a game where Gilan and Mazandran aren't at each other's throats. I don't know what Ardabil was like say 4 years ago but it really wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that Paradox in their infinite wisdom and mercy made a Persia centred patch only to have said patch make the country that formed Persia IRL be taken out to pasture.