Shahanshah in King of Kings - Forming Persia as Ardabil Getting Worse?

[SeymourG]

Hello lads. I've waited to try a Persia run until the rework with 1.36/KoK, and figured that if I'm going to be grabbing some Persian achievements, I may as well go the full mile and grab Shahanshah listed as Very Hard on the Wiki and for good reason, IMO.

Results So Far

I've found this completely impossible to do. Many online posts I see about it indicate that it got harder over the many years since it was introduced (1.8, 2014), and while I don't know if anything in this particular update made it even worse, none of the old guides or videos seem to be accurate any longer. My attempts have all gone in one of three ways:
1) QQ bodies me within the first year (3x)
2) I survive for a while and grow a bit, but Ajam murders the weakened Timurids and forms Persia on their own (4x)
3) Ajam, QQ, or Shirvan ally with one of the others and collectively body me within the first year (2x)

Attempts to Prevail

As such, I am at a loss. Things I've tried to no avail:
a) Allying QQ, Ajam, or Shirvan. I reset a grand total of 17 times, and in every single one, all three were hostile or two hostile and one domineering -- even when QQ was merely domineering, I'd do everything in my power to increase opinion or look tough (Increase Relations, Estate Privilege for fellow Shias, insult enemies, beef up over force limit, ally elsewhere, etc.) but was always DOWed by QQ regardless. Interestingly, older guides seemed to indicate that QQ being domineering was significantly preferable (or outright necessary) to this run, but the three times they had that attitude wound up being the only three times they DOWed me. Wonder if something changed there?
b) Allying externally. Mushasha is an easy early ally, as are others a bit up north around Georgia. Another strong deviation is that many older guides indicated that Shirvan would be a solid backup ally if QQ fails, but I never once got that opportunity. In my 17 resets to tempt RNGesus, Shirvan was always either hostile or flatout a rival. And Ajam was perpetually hostile, period. No big allies ever cared enough in time -- AQ, Mamluks, Ottomans, Timurids all ignored me until it was too late. Damn Sunnis.
c) Accepting QQ bodying me and becoming their vassal, then using the Mamluks to bail me out in an Independence War. This almost worked once after quite a bit of last-ditch finagling (and avoiding being annexed by 3%), but the Ottomans took advantage of the whole thing and slapped the Mamluks, ultimately forcing them out of my war.
d) Striking it relatively solo. If I don't get smacked down in the first year, I can conquer a fair bit by myself. Even when managing to stay alive for a long time, I still can't prevent Ajam from expanding east into the Timurids' mess and forming Persia completely independent of my actions. Short of declaring on Ajam myself, anyway. Even then, they keep ballooning within the first year or two, long before I have the opportunity to get real allies, so when they form Persia in under a decade... I'm unsure if I can still get any of the Persian achievements or form it at all if I play the long game and fully eradicate this first Persian iteration off the map then attempt to form it myself, but that would likely take up far too much time, assuming they don't just turn around and strike me down.
e) Being an opportunist. I've had a few decent runs where fortune would smile upon me and, say, QQ would get dog-piled by many countries and I could take a solid chunk. This has not yet been enough to either prevent me from being murdered regardless or Ajam forming Persia on its own.

RNG Pre-Requisites?

The way I'm seeing it, with the current state the game is in, it feels as though I require the following blessings from RNGesus in order to make this Shahanshah run happen:
i) I need QQ, Ajam, and Shirvan to collectively grant me mercy in the first year or two until I can stand on my own two legs. This includes none of them getting particularly good alliances, or they seem guaranteed to engulf the entire Persian/Caucasian sub-regions.
ii) I need the Timurids to not fall apart (has not yet happened for me), thus preventing Ajam from taking necessary provinces from them and their vassals.
iii) I need Ajam to be put in its place by someone other than me so that they don't form Persia on their own. I have not yet been able to form an alliance stronger than theirs in time.

It's a short list, but they have not all been met at once. The three of these each seem to have pretty low odds separately, so having all three at once appears very improbable. I feel as though I've ironed out the parts I actually have control over, but the above three things feel 50-100% controlled by RNG. I feel as though I could simply brute-force this and attempt many more dozens of times until the stars align, but I'm reaching out here in hopes that there's actual strategy to be had here. I'm hoping that my fears of an ancient achievement being accidentally made nigh-impossible by a new update/DLC are just me being a noob.

In Other Words...

Tl;Dr: my runs all either end within the first year or two by one of the three surrounding pricks, or a decade in when Ajam beats me to the punch and forms Persia by itself. Advice on how to proceed in the current version/DLC environment would be greatly appreciated, especially pointing out anything I'm misconstruing. Thanks!

[Marquoz]

I don't have any useful advice for you about completing it in the present patch--I'm one of those players who got it many years ago, when it was indeed easier than it is now. My recommendation is to roll the game back to the version in which it was introduced (or one shortly thereafter) and try it there.

[KingCobra]

idk... i did king of kings achievement as ardabil on release. im eat shirvan and biapas on start. then ajam with help of timurids.
i think u need some luck on start with timurids rivals for +20 reason for alliance

[Demien]

I honestly don't remember in which order I declared war on my neighbours but I can assure you is doable because I just did it in this patch. It worked on my third run, first and second I was killed after 40 years. What helped me a lot was not to rush expanding. In my third run I didn't have strong allies but I waited every time that neighbours were in war. Biggest challenge for me were the Ottomans(as usual) were I needed Commonwealth, France, Bohemia and some minor WHILE they were at wars with Mamluks. It's crazy that even after 3 total defeats from me they have half my dev and still more soldiers than me.
Anyway forget about that crap about resetting the game till you have good rivals. It doesn't work in this patch, just try multiple times and chew only little by little.

[salatrin]

My strategy is to just get attacked by QQ (usually after ive swallowed up Biapas and maybe Mazandaran) cuz if they attack me, i dont have to deal with their allies(i usually have same 2 allies they do and they join my side on defensive or neither) then i just grab a merc or 2, wait for them to siege Ardabil, then destroy them, repeat a time or 2 as needed, then after their armies are beaten, i siege Tabriz and its GG QQ, and then u have a nice starting powerbase from there to continue on

[Demien]

Originally posted by salatrin:

My strategy is to just get attacked by QQ (usually after ive swallowed up Biapas and maybe Mazandaran) cuz if they attack me, i dont have to deal with their allies(i usually have same 2 allies they do and they join my side on defensive or neither) then i just grab a merc or 2, wait for them to siege Ardabil, then destroy them, repeat a time or 2 as needed, then after their armies are beaten, i siege Tabriz and its GG QQ, and then u have a nice starting powerbase from there to continue on

Seems like a good strategy. I want to point out that beating QQ is preferred but not necessary. In my game they stayed allied to the Ottomans the whole game and I had to beat them really late.

[SeymourG]

Originally posted by Demien:

I honestly don't remember in which order I declared war on my neighbours but I can assure you is doable because I just did it in this patch. It worked on my third run, first and second I was killed after 40 years. What helped me a lot was not to rush expanding. In my third run I didn't have strong allies but I waited every time that neighbours were in war. Biggest challenge for me were the Ottomans(as usual) were I needed Commonwealth, France, Bohemia and some minor WHILE they were at wars with Mamluks. It's crazy that even after 3 total defeats from me they have half my dev and still more soldiers than me.
Anyway forget about that crap about resetting the game till you have good rivals. It doesn't work in this patch, just try multiple times and chew only little by little.

This patch, eh? I'm envious. I'll keep beating my head into the wall and see what I can do. I sadly can't even get to the point of "don't expand too fast" since I've been losing each run in 1-10 years to QQ or Ajam beating me to the Persia punch, thanks largely to Timurids self-destructing every time, but I'll keep trying.
Cheers lads.

[Demien]

Originally posted by SeymourG:

Originally posted by Demien:

I honestly don't remember in which order I declared war on my neighbours but I can assure you is doable because I just did it in this patch. It worked on my third run, first and second I was killed after 40 years. What helped me a lot was not to rush expanding. In my third run I didn't have strong allies but I waited every time that neighbours were in war. Biggest challenge for me were the Ottomans(as usual) were I needed Commonwealth, France, Bohemia and some minor WHILE they were at wars with Mamluks. It's crazy that even after 3 total defeats from me they have half my dev and still more soldiers than me.
Anyway forget about that crap about resetting the game till you have good rivals. It doesn't work in this patch, just try multiple times and chew only little by little.

This patch, eh? I'm envious. I'll keep beating my head into the wall and see what I can do. I sadly can't even get to the point of "don't expand too fast" since I've been losing each run in 1-10 years to QQ or Ajam beating me to the Persia punch, thanks largely to Timurids self-destructing every time, but I'll keep trying.
Cheers lads.

You will eventually do it :) I'm sure of it.