Natives too hard now.

[SystemAddict]

With the changes made to the natives in the form of their no longer being able to make a 2nd federation, surviving against the colonizers as the natives feels impossible.

Since there's no way to make one big federation, the smaller federations get stuck rivaling each other so alliances against the colonizers is impossible. we'll have 4 federations totaling 100k dudes, but because of natives needing to rival someone of equivalent strength, you get 2 native coalitions of 50k vs 50k. Then you get New Spain with 40k troops on it's own and a 4 military tech lead and they're just able to piece meal the natives and obliterate them.

Every game so far. I get that colonizers were sad they had to pay a little extra attention to their colonizing efforts, but this is ridiculous how impossible it feels to play as the natives.

hurr durr historically the natives were much weaker.
Yes and No. The colonization of north america was a slow grind. You load up victoria 3 and half of america is still tribal land, and that game starts in 1836. The idea that colonizers are completely wiping out natives by 1600 isn't just historically inaccurate, which we can ignore because I get that it's a game and the purpose is to be fun, but it's completely unfun now to try and play as a native american because you literally stand zero chance to not even conquer but survive.

[grognardgary]

The Natives were only able to hang in as long as they did because the colonizers spent as much or more time fighting each other as they did fighting Native Americans, until the Americans began gaining independence, And then of course came several civil wars in different Independent American states And lets not forget South of the Rio Grande in Central America while Spanish culture predominates though it is arguable by how much the people are mostly of Maya ancestry,

[SystemAddict]

thanks for responding but really it's just semantics and doesn't do anything to address the issue.
Unless you're saying there is no issue because the natives should stand zero chance.
Which if that's your position, then we're in disagreement.

I feel that in the current state of the game, the natives are unfun to play. Not only is there still an immersion breaking bug with conquering settled land becoming unusable because the game has a colony owned by no one occupying it, but having zero way to defend itself with overwhelming numbers against technologically superior colonizers means every native american game is now effectively over by 1600.

[reprodukTOOOOOOOOOOOR]

Originally posted by System Addict:

thanks for responding but really it's just semantics and doesn't do anything to address the issue.
Unless you're saying there is no issue because the natives should stand zero chance.
Which if that's your position, then we're in disagreement.

I feel that in the current state of the game, the natives are unfun to play. Not only is there still an immersion breaking bug with conquering settled land becoming unusable because the game has a colony owned by no one occupying it, but having zero way to defend itself with overwhelming numbers against technologically superior colonizers means every native american game is now effectively over by 1600.

I dont think, natives are designed to be equaly powerfull as western nations, the game is called europa for a reason, from historical point to a gameplay,
sure, there are strategies, how to survive, but I dont think natives are meant to even survive,
europeans werent wiping out all the natives by 1600, but I think it would be difficult to represent small pockets of natives left in this game,
natives are meant to be conquered

[SystemAddict]

then why exist as playable nations if they're not intended to be capable of achieving success?
Why have achievements in game centered around native accomplishments if according to you, the game is called europa?

Natives were playable UNTIL this last patch. This last patch BROKE natives to the point where its impossible to win with them now. Their entire rework back in leviathan (i think it was that one, around that time) was pinnacled by being able to form multi federations. With it removed, they have no chance.

It use to be fine, now it's not.

[Dante_Deepdarkness]

You can play any nation available and do a WC (even there is a person that WCed, released a nation and WC the again), obviously some are harder than others, and yes, being a Native American is one of the hard, and in that regard the settled ones are a bit harder than the migratory ones in my opinion (with the migratory you can become a horde and then spawn feudalism on your own, as settled you need a colonizer next to you to get it), but it is doable. My last run was as Quizquiz and I got the achievement (have the province of Anjou -France- as my capital), and after that I accepted to become New Providence (I took Bahamas, Cuba and Jamaica from Portugal time before) and got its achievement too.
To me the key was that Portugal arrived first so I could link with Castilla until I cracked Portugal's colonies of the Caribbean and Colombia, taking with it Cape Verde, Azores and Madeira because I waited for them to "enforce peace" when fighting their Colombian colony. Enough to embrace feudalism, become a monarchy and spawn Renaissance and Colonialism, tech up until catch on the colonies and erase them from North America and Mexico/ Central America (but a couple of provinces of Denmark on Canada and a couple more on modern Panamá). At that moment Castilla rivalled me, but I already got what I wanted, and I just needed to catch on tech before putting my foot on Europa (which I did against a weak Castilla).
I had lots of fun despite the slow pace of getting Institutions, maybe it will be worth trying the Aboriginals from Australia (the only ones I haven’t played with).
It requires time and, to me, a bit of good RNG (linking with Castilla was key), but doable. Any better player than me will do it better and without the RNG part, so wait for them.

[SystemAddict]

did you do that achievement with this last patch?
After the federation nerf?
I know full well it was doable before then.
I'm just saying now, not being able to make a large federation, it's impossible.
not like, impossible impossible because nothing is, but it's so heavily skewed against the native americans that it's just constant failure after failure.
Like i said, the last 30 hours I've played was all native american tribes and every time things seemed like they were going well, 1550 the colonizers go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and obliterate the natives.
OR because it's stuck to 2-3 alliances instead of 1 federation, they all have to rival each other and then the colonizers just attack them immediately because there's no deterrent force.

The native american game is broken right now.

[Dante_Deepdarkness]

Yes, I got it... last Sunday or last Monday, not really sure. It has been a tough week. I always play with the newest version.
But because I needed to be Quizquiz I never joined a Federation (in case they pretended to "create" the federation as a tag), and the one I created I disbanded later to eat the members once I bordered them, I could manage Portugal because of Castilla and also because I was so big that I could put on field a large enough army with enough manpower to stand a chance (on the proper terrain, of course, no way I could have won them blindly fighting anywhere).

[shogunsmurf]

Bro.... Natives are the most OP in game right now, Totemist is insanely good as a religion, the migrating and claiming land when done properly is insanely powerful and if done properly you can unite 2 federations before Europeans show up, claiming basically half of North America.

They only bad if you don't know what you are doing, else they are considered top tier nations xD

[SystemAddict]

sounds like you went horde. i dont like going horde, personally i just dont like the playstyle. I've just been reforming, which is impossible.
As for the guy saying natives are OP, you're just wrong. they're OP if they can ever reach endgame, because yea the totems give great buffs if you get lucky ruler traits

BUT
you can't reach endgame with them now because their mid game they get smashed to bits before ever being able to catch up in military tech.

[grognardgary]

Originally posted by System Addict:

thanks for responding but really it's just semantics and doesn't do anything to address the issue.
Unless you're saying there is no issue because the natives should stand zero chance.
Which if that's your position, then we're in disagreement.

I feel that in the current state of the game, the natives are unfun to play. Not only is there still an immersion breaking bug with conquering settled land becoming unusable because the game has a colony owned by no one occupying it, but having zero way to defend itself with overwhelming numbers against technologically superior colonizers means every native american game is now effectively over by 1600.

Sorry dude but any player and even the AI would in this universe Conquer the native Americans with relative ease the minute they decided to do so, We are talking Stone age vs steel age. Flint tipped arrows and spears vs cannons and muskets. And lets not forget there were never any real tribal alliances More often than not the Native Americans existed as mutually antagonistic tribal groupings along linguistic lines. Note the Spanish success south of the Rio grande was almost entirely because they often had Native allies The overwhelming majority of the Spanish army that conquered the Aztecs was Maya. And lets face it Native Americans had no more than three or four hundred years to make up five millennia of technological development.

[Dante_Deepdarkness]

Originally posted by System Addict:

sounds like you went horde. i dont like going horde, personally i just dont like the playstyle. I've just been reforming, which is impossible.
As for the guy saying natives are OP, you're just wrong. they're OP if they can ever reach endgame, because yea the totems give great buffs if you get lucky ruler traits

BUT
you can't reach endgame with them now because their mid game they get smashed to bits before ever being able to catch up in military tech.

No, I didn't reform as a Horde. I go horde if I am a migratory tribe (unless I can get feudalism and become a monarchy, which I only did once in 3 tries with 3 different nations). Despite it was my first time as a settled tribe (Quizquiz starts settled), I decided not try to become a Horde (in fact, I'm not sure if I saw that option, I would say no, but I don't remember so I can be wrong). I don't like hordes myself, to me they are fun for a very short time, I use them if I have to (like to form Qing), not because I want to.

[SystemAddict]

so then there's no point to play native americans anymore.
Just remove the ability to play them from the game since it's gauaranteed and celebrated that they get exterminated by the 1600s

cool cool

Might as well just remove the ability to play countries in asia and africa as well since the game's called europa universalis and supposed to be entirely europe centric.

[RCMidas]

Originally posted by System Addict:

so then there's no point to play native americans anymore.
Just remove the ability to play them from the game since it's gauaranteed and celebrated that they get exterminated by the 1600s

cool cool

Might as well just remove the ability to play countries in asia and africa as well since the game's called europa universalis and supposed to be entirely europe centric.

There was only a brief period of time when it was worth playing natives, and that was when Leviathan came out and broke them to hell and back. You think it's bad now? On release, no migration. You stay in your province, cannot colonise, and do nothing forever until the Europeans come along and eat you.

Everyone else still has a good chance, though the Africans mostly shouldn't, if we're being honest.

[SystemAddict]

agreed, lets be historically accurate since that's what is most important and have africa be stone age with zero percent chance of advancing and being successful.
Songhai? Mali? Just completely delete their mission trees and keep them locked at pre-fuedalism.

Like the Natives, it's a requirement they have no chance at success.

[Malvastor]

Originally posted by System Addict:

agreed, lets be historically accurate since that's what is most important and have africa be stone age with zero percent chance of advancing and being successful.
Songhai? Mali? Just completely delete their mission trees and keep them locked at pre-fuedalism.

Like the Natives, it's a requirement they have no chance at success.

No one's arguing for that (mostly). There's a balance to be struck somewhere between "nonsensically easy and overpowered" and "unenjoyably punishing". Paradox has just had a hard time finding it.