Europa Universalis IV

Europa Universalis IV

View Stats:
steelm2003 Mar 16, 2023 @ 6:29am
Colonial Idea Group Changes
I only play Portugal and I can tell you, that it is acctual the other way around. You take Expansion when you go 'Africa and Beyond' and Exploration when you go to the Americas. Here are the reasosns why.

1. If you go to America, the Colonial Nations will colonize along side of you. So can get away with just one colonist. If you go around Africa you have to colonize everything for yourself, so you need at least 2 Colonists (hence Expansion).
2. The bottleneck for 'Africa and Beyond' is colonial range. So you want a high diplo tech level, which gives you colonial range. Having to take a 'Diplo Idea' slows you down.

But the biggest problem is, that Colonial Nations are not worth it. With just four provinces in the Caribbean for example you make more money from taxes and production than you will ever get from tarrifs. With trading ships or privateers you get even more trade value. So even as Portugal I just make them from time to time as a meme.

/cu steelm
< >
Showing 1-15 of 49 comments
Kapika96 Mar 16, 2023 @ 7:15am 
You only play Portugal? Isn't that incredibly boring?

Personally I never take exploration ideas, I consider them to be utter rubbish. Expansion + map stealing is the way to go as any colonial nation.
steelm2003 Mar 16, 2023 @ 7:31am 
No, not really. I'm more of an optimizer. And every time I figured out how to play it most efficent, there is a new patch :-)

PS: I take Exploration 2nd, only temporary until reached the Moluccas.
Marquoz Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:15am 
Originally posted by steelm2003:
No, not really. I'm more of an optimizer. And every time I figured out how to play it most efficent, there is a new patch :-)

PS: I take Exploration 2nd, only temporary until reached the Moluccas.

An optimal Portugal run easily conquers the entire world. But before I outline how, I want to address some misconceptions you have:

1) Colonial nations are not about tariff income. They're about trade. Tariffs are nearly useless, and I ignore them completely. What I love are the trade power and bonus merchants colonial nations provide. A good Portugese empire will make thousands per month in profit from trade alone--literally thousands. Gold fleets are a nice secondary source.

2) The Americas and "Africa and Beyond" aren't an either-or choice. A good Portugeese player grabs every scrap of the New World, sub-Saharan Africa, India, southeast Asia, Indonesia, and Australia--and that's just for starters.

As for how, before you unlock your first idea group, you start wrecking Castile with the help of Aragon and/or France. You don't want to share your initial collection node (Seville) with anyone, and you don't want them to compete with you for good colonies. So you take Granada before they do. You take one province each of Galicia and Leon to fight reconquest wars. You grab their islands and their entire coastline. Etc. It takes multiple wars, but you start as soon as possible and you wipe them out.

For ideas, you take Exploration first (which has been buffed recently and is much better now) and use explorers to open your horizons. Exploration also boosts colonial range. Combine that with strategically placed colonies, and you can get anywhere you want. You follow Exploration with Expansion and then the Big Three (Admin, Diplo, Influence). Religion is also helpful.

While you're building your colonial empire, you annihilate both France and England so that you have no colonial competition to speak of. You also take over the Low Countries (no Netherlands) and move your trade collection point to the English Channel, by far the best trade node in the game.

At that point, world conquest is a matter of just mopping up. You'll have total control of the Americas, most of Africa, the richest parts of Asia, and most of western Europe. Nothing can withstand you then.

Also, I strongly recommend that you play other nations than Portugal. You're not learning much about the game by sticking with one nation that has a very atypical start. And you're not learning important lessons even from Portugal. Statements like "Colonial Nations are not worth it" are wildly wrong.
Last edited by Marquoz; Mar 16, 2023 @ 2:04pm
Malvastor Mar 16, 2023 @ 8:42am 
Originally posted by steelm2003:
1. If you go to America, the Colonial Nations will colonize along side of you. So can get away with just one colonist. If you go around Africa you have to colonize everything for yourself, so you need at least 2 Colonists (hence Expansion).

Your CNs will colonize alongside you, but each one takes 5 provinces to set up. Much much faster to get there with 2-3 colonists than with just the one from Exploration.

Keep in mind you're also racing against other Europeans who may crowd you out (and if they're Catholic, nab the Tordesillas bonus before you do, which is really just an annoyance but still.)

Originally posted by steelm2003:
2. The bottleneck for 'Africa and Beyond' is colonial range. So you want a high diplo tech level, which gives you colonial range. Having to take a 'Diplo Idea' slows you down.

In the short term maybe, but not enough to really hinder you from keeping on par.

Plus, Exploration gives you +50% colonial range anyway. That's a bigger bonus than you'll get from Diplo techs 9 or 11.

Originally posted by steelm2003:
But the biggest problem is, that Colonial Nations are not worth it. With just four provinces in the Caribbean for example you make more money from taxes and production than you will ever get from tarrifs. With trading ships or privateers you get even more trade value. So even as Portugal I just make them from time to time as a meme.

/cu steelm

This is horrifyingly wrong. Colonial nations give you control of trade power in their nodes, and they also fill those nodes with productive provinces that actually generate trade value. Then they give you merchants you can use to push all that trade value back home to Europe and make absolute stacks of cash. Those four provinces you have in the Caribbean are generating a trifling amount of tax and production money, and giving you control over a paltry amount of trade- at least, until England or Spain comes along and forms an actual CN that dominates the node and pushes trade to them.

As a side benefit, sufficiently large CNs will sometimes ship their armies over to help you fight your European wars.
TsyuRyu.TTV Mar 16, 2023 @ 9:04am 
why bother with colonisation just get 1 colonist , spy the target send the colonist get your claim declare war you dont need exploration or expanstion if you already has 1 colonist with your idea
Marquoz Mar 16, 2023 @ 12:59pm 
Originally posted by ASININE MORTAL:
why bother with colonisation just get 1 colonist , spy the target send the colonist get your claim declare war you dont need exploration or expanstion if you already has 1 colonist with your idea

Because your colonial nations will be both greater in number and vastly larger, richer, and stronger if you colonize. You'll also gain access to far more of the world more quickly.
Narrowmind Mar 16, 2023 @ 1:46pm 
Colonial nations will also expand on their own if you subsidize, as well.
Marquoz Mar 16, 2023 @ 1:52pm 
A very useful strategy, yes. I send new colonial nations a subsidy of roughly 3 ducats per month for the first 20 years for that very reason. Between your own colonization, that of colonial nations, and conquest of natives, you can paint the New World your color far quicker than was historically possible--too quickly, really--and make immense profits.
Tariffs absolutely need a rework to stop being less than 1% of the income you receive from colonies, because at present there's literally no purpose to them other than to inflate your Colonial Nations' Liberty Desire. But just because tariffs are useless doesn't mean CN's are.
Malvastor Mar 16, 2023 @ 3:20pm 
Originally posted by Totally Innocent Chatbot:
Tariffs absolutely need a rework to stop being less than 1% of the income you receive from colonies, because at present there's literally no purpose to them other than to inflate your Colonial Nations' Liberty Desire. But just because tariffs are useless doesn't mean CN's are.

Maybe tariffs could instead be a modifier to the amount of trade power a CN gives to its parent nation. E.G. at 100% tariffs or whatever, all the CN's trade power goes to you and they get a correspondingly high liberty desire. So if you wring them for extra money you'll actually get something meaningful, as opposed to driving them to rebellion for 3.6 extra ducats a month.
MasterYi Mar 16, 2023 @ 10:44pm 
I wonder is it worth prioritising Africa during the Age of Discovery for the +1 1 1 Dev in finished colonies? Better to have higher dev for yourself than for your Subjects who then will have a higher Liberty Desire from Development modifier?

Also, do u just colonise 5 provinces for the CN to form and subsidise them? Or is it often better to continue colonising a few more provinces for them to boost their income so they can be more self-sufficient?
Malvastor Mar 16, 2023 @ 11:23pm 
Originally posted by MasterYi:
I wonder is it worth prioritising Africa during the Age of Discovery for the +1 1 1 Dev in finished colonies? Better to have higher dev for yourself than for your Subjects who then will have a higher Liberty Desire from Development modifier?

Honestly, there's such a short window for that that I don't think it even matters much

Originally posted by MasterYi:
Also, do u just colonise 5 provinces for the CN to form and subsidise them? Or is it often better to continue colonising a few more provinces for them to boost their income so they can be more self-sufficient?

Unless there's a really compelling reason to focus on a region I've already got a CN in (like making sure they get a provinces that was buffed by a Seven Cities event or helping them outgrow a rival CN), I usually do five and move on.
Marquoz Mar 17, 2023 @ 8:08am 
Same here. As an early colonizer like Spain or Portugal, I want to set up colonial nations in as many regions as I can as fast as I can. Their additional colonists enable me to grab more total land more quickly.

One exception is the Caribbean. The AI is terrible at settling non-contiguous islands (those that don't have a direct land or strait connection), so I'll give them a hand there sometimes.
Malvastor Mar 17, 2023 @ 8:10am 
Usually for the Caribbean I just make sure I settle the centers of trade and high-dev provinces. Since there's at least on on both of the big islands that takes care of things for the most part, my CN can fill things in. And if someone else manages to set up a CN there, I just have mine eat it.
steelm2003 Mar 17, 2023 @ 11:03am 
Originally posted by Marquoz:

An optimal Portugal run easily conquers the entire world. But before I outline how, I want to address some misconceptions you have:

Im not a noob and tried most of the things you mentioned, Which lead to my conclusion that "Colonial Nations are not worth it".

1) Colonial nations are not about tariff income. They're about trade.
A Colonial Nation gives you half of there trade power, this means if they have 100% trade power you will get 50%. That is the maximum trade power you can get from a Colonial Nation. In my latest save (1680) I have only 4 provinces in fully colonized Caribbean (half british, half dutch) and I have 63% trade power. So where are the benefits of the Colonial Nation, its not tariffs, but it isn't trade either. Please tell me where are the benefits, show me numbers.

2) The Americas and "Africa and Beyond" aren't an either-or choice.
But it is. If you go to the Americas 'Exploration Ideas' is a must, just for the claims. Its not a bad idea group, but for "Africa and Beyond" there are better like Influence (for Vasalls) or Espionage (less AE).

For ideas, you take Exploration first
No, you dont. Portugal gets 3 Navigators (1 from the start, 2 and 3 from missions) which makes the first Exploration Idea useless for Portugal. The second idea gives you a colonist and plus 50% colonial range with the third Exploration Idea (+80 at this stage).
If you go Expansion first and push to Diplo Tech 7, you will get your first Colonist 400pp earlier (first Idea) and Dip 7 gives you flat +115 Colonial range ( thats not much more, but often just the one sea tile you are missing).
Going Admin first, has its downsides of course. It means, that have to expand mostly via Vassals at the start. Dont push it take Ideas when you can, its mostly about the early Colonist.

the English Channel, by far the best trade node in the game.
I dont know about that, but I can say that Sevilla is probably the easiest node in the game. In 1680 (latest save) I am making 663 ducats per month in Sevilla on trade alone and with 95% trade power it is effectively an end node. I am not sure how long it takes to get 600+ ducats per month in the English Channel.

/cu steelm

P.S. I would have put screen shots in here, but I couldnt find out how :(
< >
Showing 1-15 of 49 comments
Per page: 1530 50

Date Posted: Mar 16, 2023 @ 6:29am
Posts: 49