Opinion on Espionage idea changes !

[Carefreegold3373]

I personally feel they are of some use now
But want more spy activities ... like kill heir of other country at 100 spy network and 400 malus if discovered while doing so(ofcourse there is percentage chance like in ck 2)
Want to hear communities opinion on it

[grognardgary]

I'd rather they stayed as they are. I suspect the possibility of assassination figures into the life span of your ruler already anyhow.

[Octopuses]

No. I Don't want for my heir to keep getting assassinated. That would be annoying.

[Medicles]

As always, i propose the switch of Diplomatics "Province Warscore Modifier" with Espionages "Vassalization acceptance". Should have already been done years ago instead of giving Espionage several double ideas to make it somwhat worthwhile and its still only good enough as luxury idea. My proposal would actually change the meta for once.

[Malvastor]

Originally posted by Carefreegold3373:

But want more spy activities ... like kill heir of other country at 100 spy network and 400 malus if discovered while doing so(ofcourse there is percentage chance like in ck 2)
Want to hear communities opinion on it

I've heard this idea a lot, and I think if it's ever implemented people will regret it immediately. I base this on my experience with cardinals as Austria. You know this event[eu4.paradoxwikis.com]? Imagine you're Austria, got the Burgundian Inheritance, fought a few wars across the HRE, etc. And as a result you border easily a couple dozen Catholic countries. And each one of them is potentially eligible for this event. It was firing for me multiple times per year. I'd get a cardinal and he'd be gone at the next month tick. Drove me mildly nuts, but ultimately cardinals are fairly minor- you can do just fine without having any at all.

But now translate that to the assassination attempt idea. Every country that's aware of you (no real reason to restrict this to direct borders, after all) has the option to build a spy network and attempt an assassination. Especially if they dislike you (given a typical player's AE gains, that's a lot) or have a royal marriage with you. Unlike the cardinal event, where the opportunity itself is a totally random MTTH thing, they just have to not get their spy caught for long enough. And I've had enough "spy caught, network reduced to 75" messages to figure that's not outside the AI's abilities. Even if they fail most of the time, you could pretty easily lose 5-10 heirs in a run. That would just be obnoxious; I can see the rage threads now ranting about the AI's instant spy networks and never-miss assassination attempts and how the game scripts it to always happen to 5/5/5 heirs and never 1/1/1 heirs- none of which would be true, but it will sure feel like it to frustrated players.

Tl,dr: Players will receive way more assassination attempts than they can dish out and will get very frustrated.

[Keijo]

There should be a way to give ccr and other mana saving things to more than one idea without them stacking.

If there would be group with 15ccr it could compete with admin, but now that only one group gets 25ccr it makes everything else useless. Same with diplo annex and warscore and all the other good stuff.

[Chad]

Originally posted by Malvastor:

Originally posted by Carefreegold3373:

But want more spy activities ... like kill heir of other country at 100 spy network and 400 malus if discovered while doing so(ofcourse there is percentage chance like in ck 2)
Want to hear communities opinion on it

I've heard this idea a lot, and I think if it's ever implemented people will regret it immediately. I base this on my experience with cardinals as Austria. You know this event[eu4.paradoxwikis.com]? Imagine you're Austria, got the Burgundian Inheritance, fought a few wars across the HRE, etc. And as a result you border easily a couple dozen Catholic countries. And each one of them is potentially eligible for this event. It was firing for me multiple times per year. I'd get a cardinal and he'd be gone at the next month tick. Drove me mildly nuts, but ultimately cardinals are fairly minor- you can do just fine without having any at all.

But now translate that to the assassination attempt idea. Every country that's aware of you (no real reason to restrict this to direct borders, after all) has the option to build a spy network and attempt an assassination. Especially if they dislike you (given a typical player's AE gains, that's a lot) or have a royal marriage with you. Unlike the cardinal event, where the opportunity itself is a totally random MTTH thing, they just have to not get their spy caught for long enough. And I've had enough "spy caught, network reduced to 75" messages to figure that's not outside the AI's abilities. Even if they fail most of the time, you could pretty easily lose 5-10 heirs in a run. That would just be obnoxious; I can see the rage threads now ranting about the AI's instant spy networks and never-miss assassination attempts and how the game scripts it to always happen to 5/5/5 heirs and never 1/1/1 heirs- none of which would be true, but it will sure feel like it to frustrated players.

Tl,dr: Players will receive way more assassination attempts than they can dish out and will get very frustrated.

I already feel this with sow discontent. As soon as this gets unlocked the player will pretty much always get this since 2-5 AI will spam it on you. For a player that mechanic is pretty much useless, most AI don't really expand that much so they are not that unstable, but as a player you are often at 100 overextention so you have to deal with more rebels. you can't really defend against it not even with the dumb counter espionage thing since you have to put it on literally everyone instead of making it something sensible like put one diplomat on yourself to protect against everyone. I never understood why they implemented that.

[Marquoz]

The AI also loves to slander merchants, and for someone who is as trade focused as I am, that's annoying. As Chad said, there's really no way to prevent it, so you just have to eat the loss in power. Assassination would be far worse. No thanks!

[Time's Ticking]

It was tried and hot fixed, because player's hated it. Besides, how many European rulers were actually assassinated 1444-1821?

[Carefreegold3373]

i wanted that so counterespionage actually makes sense to do
and they could put additionally put condition of rivalry

[kaiyl_kariashi]

I'd prefer they did a hybrid of the old and new espionage.

espionage ideas gives you access to the espionage actions like it used to AND gives you the bonuses it does now.

I.e. Everyone will eventually get access to the actions as in the current system, but a player who picks up the idea set can get access to them sooner (instead of them being exclusive to the idea set, like they used to be in the old version).

[Sharpie The Dragon]

Originally posted by Marquoz:

The AI also loves to slander merchants, and for someone who is as trade focused as I am, that's annoying. As Chad said, there's really no way to prevent it, so you just have to eat the loss in power. Assassination would be far worse. No thanks!

Trade is either all or nothing usually. So if you're making so much that slander merchants is affecting your economy, then it's so far ahead that it doesn't really matter. Likewise if your trade is tiny (roleplay) it doesn't make much of a difference either.

I think Sow Discontent is worse since that directly affects manpower through rebellions (ties up troops as well) which became more shy this patch.

Though the espionage interactions themselves are pretty awful and have always been under designed. It's so one dimensional with spy network when it could be so much more. The infiltrate administration for example takes until tech 30 which is... why?

Espionage should be something that happens over-time and not suddenly, could've had the opportunity to not use diplomats and have a proper spy mechanic instead. Stuff like causing inflation, stealing money, monarch power, assassinating rulers, doing coups. YES it should be annoying; Players should be actively encouraged to counter it. (And I don't mean through a crappy counter-espionage button)

[zorkman]

I hadn't played for awhile, & was shocked how much spying against you was going on, with these silly networks everywhere. I wish it would go back to just those who picked espionage ideas. Any way to turn this nonsense off.

[Malvastor]

Originally posted by Carefreegold3373:

i wanted that so counterespionage actually makes sense to do
and they could put additionally put condition of rivalry

I can't see any real justification for that. There's no reason y'd have to be a rival to someone to attempt to assassinate their officials, and the biggest gameplay utility for an assassination mechanic would be trying to force a PU- which is pretty minimally useful against a rival.

Originally posted by zorkman:

I hadn't played for awhile, & was shocked how much spying against you was going on, with these silly networks everywhere. I wish it would go back to just those who picked espionage ideas. Any way to turn this nonsense off.

Not sure that would make sense. The game doesn't restrict trade to countries that take Trade ideas, or diplo vassalization to those that take Influence. Lately some countries don't even have to take Exploration or Expansion to colonize. Why should building a spy network without Espionage be any different?

[Carefreegold3373]

what i mean is espionage is not as powerful as it was in real life